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  • Report:  #2067

Complaint Review: Mormon Church LDS - Salt Lake City Utah

Reported By:
- Tempe, Arizona,
Submitted:
Fri, April 14, 2000
Updated:

Mormon Church LDS
Salt Lake City, Utah, U.S.A.
Web:
N/A
Categories:
Religious Groups
Tell us has your experience with this business or person been good? What's this?
THE MORMON CHURCH'S RACIST IDEOLOGY

The Mormon church has proclaimed themselves the holiest of the holy and the righteous of the right. They put up the facade of being a caring organization devoted to turning misguided people to Jesus. They have done as they have always done but until recently that mission did not include people of African decent.

The church since it's conception has preached hatred towards our fellow human beings as being somehow beneath the White man. They rationalized their hatred by incorporating hate into their doctrine and scriptures. It wasn't until 1978 when this all changed, when a "revelation" came to the holy Mormon prophets to change their ways. Actually this had less to do with good will and more to do with a loss of tax exempt status.

Now Blacks are allowed entry into the confines of this cult. And why not? More people means more revenue for the filthy rich church. Now missionaries are free to invade predominatly Black neighborhoods and countries in order to recruit more devotees. I am saddened to know that there are friends of mine who are ignorant of the history of this cult and have devoted much of their time and money to supporting this abomination. One Black female friend of mine is currently attending a Mormon college in Utah and will someday do missionary work for the same church that outcast her as inferior.

These are the actual, unedited words of the prophets of hate. Please read them and learn the real intent of the church when it was created in the minds of frightened little men.

JOSEPH SMITH (First Prophet and President and Founder of the Mormon Church)

"Had I anything to do with the negro , I would confine them by strict law to their own species and put them on a national equalization.'' History of the Church, Volume 5, pages 218 - 219.

BRIGHAM YOUNG (Second Prophet and President of the Mormon Church)

"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the Children of men, that they may not call scripture!" Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, page 95.

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, ad seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be and the Lord put a mark on him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then other curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they would be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree." Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, pages 290 291

"In our first settlement in Missouri, it was said by our enemies that we intended to tamper with the slaves, not that we had any idea of the kind, for such a thing never entered our minds. We knew that the children of Ham were to be the "servant of servants," and no power under heaven could hinder it, so long as the Lord would permit them to welter under the curse and those were known to be our religious views concerning them." Journal of Discourses, Volume 2, page 172.

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.

BRUCE R. McCONKIE (of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Mormon Church)

"Those who were less valiant in the pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against Cod and his murder of Abel being a black skin.... Noah's son Ham married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood....The negroes are not equal with other races when the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom, but this inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord's doing, based on His eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate." Mormon Doctrine, 10th printing, pages 527-528.

"Racial degeneration, resulting In differences In appearance and spiritual aptitude, has arisen since the fall. We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later of Ham) were cursed with what we call negroid racial characteristics." Mormon Doctrine, page 616.

"Though he was a rebel and an associate of Lucifer in the preexistence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain managed to attain the privilege of mortal birth....As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the negroes, and those spirits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition." Mormon Doctrine, page 109.

"Through Ham (a name meaning black) "the blood of the Canaanites was preserved" through the flood, he having married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain....Negroes are thus descendants of Ham, who himself also was cursed apparently for marrying into the forbidden lineage." Mormon Doctrine, page 343.

"....in a broad general sense, caste systems have their root and origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate: Cain Ham, and the whole negro race have _ cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry." Mormon Doctrine, page 114.

MARK E. PETERSON (of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Mormon Church)

"Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them.... The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the negroes we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that He placed a dark skin upon them as a curse - as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse

"....And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there. The Negro was cursed as to the Priesthood, and therefore, was cursed as to the blessings of the Priesthood. Certainly God made a segregation there.

"If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would all be cursed as to the priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the priesthood? If there is one drop of negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse, There isn't any argument, therefore, as to intermarriage with the Negro, is there? There are 50 million Negroes in the United States. If they were to achieve complete absorption with the white race, think what that would do. With 50 million Negroes inter-married with us, where would the priesthood be? Who could hold it, in all America? Think what that would do to the work of the Church!....

"Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation?" Race Problems - as They Affect The Church (address given at Brigham Young University)

JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH (Tenth Prophet and President of the Mormon Church)

"I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. "Darkies" are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church." Look magazine, October 22, 1963, page 79.

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantage. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.... There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits." Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1, pages 66-67.

"President Brigham Young, answering a question put to him by Elder Lorenzo D. Young in a meeting held December 25 , 1869, in Salt Lake City, said that Joseph Smith had declared that the Negroes were not neutral in heaven, for all the spirits took sides, but the posterity of Cain are black because he (Cain) committed murder." The Way to Perfection, pages 105-106.

"That negro race, for instance, have been placed under restrictions because of their attitude in the world of spirits, few will doubt. It cannot be looked upon as just that they should be deprived of the power of the Priesthood without it being a punishment for some act, or acts, performed before they were born." The Way to Perfection, page 43.

"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.... we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren children of God not withstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness. " The Way to Perfection, pages 101-102.

"Ham, through Egyptus, continued the curse which was placed upon the seed of Cain. Because of that curse this dark race was separated and isolated from all the rest of Adam's posterity before the flood, and since that time the same condition has continued, and they have been 'despised among all people. 'This doctrine did not originate with President Brigham Young but was taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith.... we all know it is due to his teachings that the negro today is barred from the Priesthood."

The Way to Perfection, pages 110-111.

JOHN TAYLOR (Third Prophet and President of the Mormon Church)

" . . . after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation a upon a the earth as well as God;.... " Journal of Discourses, Volume 22, page 304.

"When he (Satan) destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian worlds, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he might be properly represented upon the earth." Journal of Discourses, Volume 23, page 336

ORSON PRAT (of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Mormon Church)

" .... among the Saints (i.e., Mormons] is the most likely place for these [pre-existent) spirits to take their tabernacles, through a just and righteous parentage....The Lord has not kept them in store for five or six thousand years past, and kept them waiting for their bodies all this time to send them among the Hottentots, the African Negroes, the idolatrous Hindoos, or any other of the fallen nations of the earth. They are not kept in reserve in order to come forth to receive such a degraded parentage upon the earth; no, the Lord is not such a being." Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, page 63.


46 Updates & Rebuttals

Lori

Oklahoma City,
Oklahoma,
U.S.A.
mormon racists

#2Consumer Comment

Thu, August 25, 2005

Kent, you are a typical brainwashed Mormon. The only reason African Americans are allowed into that CULT you call a church is because back in the 70's the NAACP threatened to boycott ALL mormon owned business world wide. I lived behind the Zion curtain for 37 years and I am soooo glad to be out of Utah. The church runs the state even though in the Utah constitution, you can pick up a copy of one at the state capitol building, it says there is to be a seperation between church and state. Mormons need to wake up and smell the coffee. Oh, I forget coffee is not allowed. People wouldn't hate the church so much if they didn't have this Jesus Jammy wearing holier than thou attitude!!!!


Raven

West Valley City,
Utah,
U.S.A.
I respect everyones choice, as long as they dont feel the need to thrust it down anothers throat

#3Consumer Comment

Mon, August 22, 2005

Hmmm... Curt, You fail to see my point, and the only reason that you even said what you did was to mearly start something that you cannot get at home... attention. I am not christian, havent been for 10 years now. But I respect everyones choice, as long as they dont feel the need to thrust it down anothers throat. It looks like before you start whinning about others, you might want to look at the person in the mirror. If anything Curt I feel sorry for you.... And just for the record... there are a few religions, and belief systems out there that are blood free.... like mine. Maybe it is because I actually studied what I was getting myself in to... Darkest Blessings, Miss Raven Blackblade


Curt

Little Rock,
Arkansas,
U.S.A.
All religions are fairy tales!

#4Consumer Comment

Mon, August 15, 2005

Hey people wake up! Where did religion come from? Answer: MAN! funny how all that exciting stuff in the bible happened so long ago when people knew nothing and had to come up with explanations to explain the world around them. Funny how people kill for religion. How many atrocities in history have happened because of religion and are still happening NOW! I always had a problem with the bible stories and not knowing about all the other religions. There are so many religions that none can be right! Sure there may have been some carpenter dude named jesus, there might have been some fat bald dude named budda. Show me some hard proof! How many new religions are still being created today? Would you want to hear what they have to offer? Did you actively research all other religions before choosing? Anyway, actions speak louder than words and all I see is that God is either non-existent or does not give a crap about humans! I was raised christian but never really believed. Always had a problem with bible stories and having to suspend my disbelief. I now compare Jesus with santa claus and the easter bunny...cause they are all just good fairy tales! I am happy without religion and have a wonderful life full of happiness! I laugh at all you people who think that I am damned to hell, but why is there a hell if god is all knowing and created us? what kind of god would make someone kill there own son to prove his love? How sick is that? weren't mary and joseph in a relationship when god decided to impregnate mary? How do you think joseph felt when he found out mary was pregant with someone elses baby? Ummmm isn't that adultery on gods part? The list goes on and on of discrepencies in the bible alone. So, all you people whining about religion should just go without, youd be better off! I think religion is an excuse for our mortality and who really knows what happens after death! You only know if you die and NO ONE I REPEAT NOT EVEN CHRIST comes back from the dead. I can find hypocrisy in all religions..nuff said!


Raven

West Valley City,
Utah,
U.S.A.
Research what you say before you say it.

#5Consumer Comment

Tue, August 09, 2005

First off.... I am not bashing anything I am mearly speaking of the facts... Back in 1999 while I was doing security for a trucking company; a trucker said to me "Yeah well Budda killed 3 people!" and I responded with "So Catholics have killed millions..." First of I am not any of the following: Christian (I was baptised Southern Baptist), Satanist, LDS, Catholic, Wiccan (Was for a few years), Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, or Pagan. I am on the other hand an Ananda Marga. IF you dont know what that is then look it up. On another LDS bashing forum here I Read that some one believes that the LDS people have never done anything wrong... Being that I have lived in Utah for quite a while I have seen things that would make anyone's stomache churn. LDS Bishops molesting and raping children, not to mention how the LDS People murdered 5 pagans because they would not convert. Very sad:( Unfortunatlly that is barely scratching the surface. I believe that it was Emily from Kansas City that once said that the LDS are the most persicuted Religion. You are mistaken Emily. The Jews are. History alone has proved that. They have been persicuted for literally THOUSANDS of years. The mormons have just gotten a little scratched up. But every Religion has been a little scratched up including mine... Hell I cannot even go to India because the last Ananda Margas that went there were violently ripped out of their taxi-cab, doused with gasoline and set a-blaze. Sorry but that isnt cool. My personal experiance with the LDS community is mixed. Three of my instructors are the coolest people I have ever met... Then there are people like my neighbors.... They hate me because I drink, smoke, watch R-Rated movies, and because I adopted out a child. Not to mention because when I am angry I swear. What is really sick though is the fact that their children starve begging the neighborhood for food, their place smells like a rotting corpse (Health force services have already been called 3 times), Their son(15) and daughter(13) share a bedroom, and their son has tried to take a metal bat to his sister. The daughter has come to my home with bad cases of ringworm and they donot own a cat. The mother rarely bathes, and the father I know for a fact is cheating on his wife by means of the internet. Then there is another family that is horrable. The father divorced his psychotic wife, and now their daughter who is 18 lives with the mother, a dear friend of mine offered to give the daughter internet access for free, the mother and grandmother asked my friend horrable questions such as "What religion are you?' Are you married?' do you have any children?'" the answers for these questions are that he is a single man who follows no religion and just mearly wants to help her because they are good friends. Their verdict? No. He was obviously doing something illegal in order to give her free internet, and because he is not a member of the Church, he would be a bad influence on her. Tsk Tsk Tsk..... Since when did humanity grow so insane? The poor girl is not even allowed to get a job because the mother says that it would ruin her social security... Sad. My point is this. Religon doesnt matter... what matters is that you have faith. But if someone believes differently than you do DONT shove your religous beliefs on them, Dont down them for it, and above all DO NOT act holier than thou. because Trust me noone is holier than the Higher power... not man, not a self proclaimed prophet, IF you sin then you are not holy......... period. Take care and bless... Darkest Blessings,


Emily

Salt Lake City,
Utah,
U.S.A.
Do not let but a few speak for all of us...

#6Consumer Comment

Thu, October 14, 2004

My dear annonymous in Texas... Had I been in the family history center I would not have stood for your being treated that way. Nor would any of my family. The member(s) who acted this way are a shame to our faith. I am sorry. Even if it didn't hurt or upset you it was wrong. They do not speak for all of us. When looking into any religion you need to look into what the church is about. By this you need only go by doctrine. Not personal opinions of leaders and so forth. Because that is all that these are... opinions. There are racists in the Mormon church... in some areas more than others. And there are racists in every religion there is. A church is not the sum of the most deplorable members. A church is it's doctrine. I would never condemn an entire religion based on the fact that persee many of its members chose to protest outside our conference center when we hold our meetings. They are rude and extremely hateful, and acting like that towards any more protected religion would be considered a hate crime. But I do not believe that even if the majority of them are involved in these activities that ALL of them are hateful.


Anonymous

Somewhere,,
Texas,
U.S.A.
So Don't Go ANYWHERE You Aren't Wanted! This sounds just like ANY ORGANIZED RELIGION.

#7Consumer Suggestion

Wed, October 13, 2004

A religious experience to me does NOT include racial slurs,insults and shunning --unless you are an outcast Amish or something like that and it sounds to me you never had a chance to become a member of THIS particuliar franchise because they either wouldn't let you in or you couldn't stay there. This sounds just like ANY ORGANIZED RELIGION. In my experience, ALL so-called Organized Religions act like this no matter what form of dogma or Scripture or Teachings they espouse. All the ones I have tried anyway. Not that I haven't had my own bad experiences with SOME LDS members. Some tended to have a monopoly on jobs at the State library here at the capitol. If you don't dress like you "have money", they will refuse to serve you or help you in any way -ESPECIALLY if you are a woman, any race. It was so bad I had to send an e-mail of complaint to the Governor's office. The State happens to be laying off and replacing a lot of State workers and even though I feel bad that some of these lost and might yet lose their jobs, they don't need to be turning a public State library for ALL of the PEOPLE into a viciously exclusive "FOR RICH PEOPLE ONLY" enclave. The State employees at this particuliar part of the State library were also attempting to intimidate "minorities" from even entering A PUBLIC STATE LIBRARY too. ALL CITIZENS PAY the taxes that pay their salaries.This is also an ELECTION YEAR! My father was a political activist who was heard and before I make a complaint, I make SURE it is thoroughly documented. In my case, there were hidden surveillance videos and they proved my case. Especially since they had recently added SOUND to the video. End of job for the women with the rat-trap mouth, she was way past retirement age anyway and will get full benefits. LDS and I DO share the joy of genealogy research. In their case it is apparently a religious obligation. I personally think that the Eternal Family part of LDS theology is a beautiful concept. BUT I don't want to be sealed up with Colored-Hating Folks of ANY race, family or not, for eternity! I went three times to an LDS Family History Center in Texas to do family research there because LDS are supposed to be the BEST genealogists in the world and word was out if you went to one of their Family History Centers they would be glad to help you. It was OK until some mean-faced member there decided because some of my family members appeared to have JEWISH surnanes I WAS NOT WELCOMED THERE. This person LOATHED me and spared no nonverbal insult or snub. Finally, I was verbally ordered out and told I would be better off "with YOUR OWN KIND!" And if I ever brought my NEE-GROW self back to that LDS Family History Center, she would call the cops. I followed all the rules too.Oh well... So I don't go back. It's a private facility so they can do that. I have met some wonderful LDS people too and have helped them research their families and locate relatives for free. It depends on the individuals. From LDS,I have received NO MORE rejection THAN ANY OTHER ORGANIZED RELIGION.And a LOT LESS than most--ESPECIALLY the So-Called CHARISMATIC ONES!!!Trust me, I have tried them ALL! The folks in most Protestant Churches put an inordinate emphasis on OUTWARD APPEARANCES while making a mockery of the very things their FOUNDER stood for.And the so-called Occultists are just a different label on the same bottle of venom. The way of ORGANIZED Protestant religions is NOT my way. At least those LDS folks were HONEST enough to let you know they didn't want you there WITHOUT the fake a charismatic line of inviting you to join their "loving, accepting Friendly church family" and conning you into thinking that you belong, vaccumning your wallets and bank accounts out like a Hoover and when there is nothing else, tossing you like a used up tissue. Give the LDS people credit for THEIR honesty and integrity. It's THEIR church THEY can do as they please in it. If a Congregation doesn't want you as a member -- GO TO ONE THAT DOES! AND WATCH YOUR MONEY WHEREVER YOU GO!


Boz

St. Augustine,
Florida,
U.S.A.
oh gosh golly

#8Consumer Comment

Wed, October 13, 2004

Hi, it is Texino, Listen, Hear and then Shut up. This is it, the final bit on this foolishness. OK? Right. Now in their fundamental state all religions are somewhat cult like. It is not until a religion takes on an interest in worldly matters that it matures into something secular society can tolerate. That is the true beans folks. Hopefully more of you will grow to the point where you no longer need mystical organizations to keep you from being afraid of the dark while at the same time hiding access to the light of true knowledge. Think about that if you will and before long you might come to know that there is only you and the ones whom you have chosen to bless and the ones who in turn bless you. That is about all there is to that. So let's get back to rip offs and such. Texino


Tracey

Edinburgh,
Other,
South America
I did not insinuate anything insulting towards you Nahni so why have you taken personal offence??

#9Consumer Comment

Tue, October 12, 2004

Nahni I stress that I am not lashing out at anyone, least of all you, yet if you wish to think I am lashing out in anger, that is entirely your decision. If you had read my first post correctly, you would have noted that I stated 'medicine and therefore genetics is not an exact science' Now, if i say the odds are that one thing might happen, thats only the betting odds and as everyone knows, its just a guess or prediction, but not an exact science. I still feel your arguments against emily are flawed, I don't care what you do for a living. All my lecturer said was the brown was dominant over the blue - everything else was my interpretation and understanding after discussion of this matter, with persons other than a highly respected nurse teacher whose area of special interest (and therefore post registration professional qualifications) was in this area. You may very well be an reproductive endocrinologist and a geneticist too (do you have a degree? you didn't say) Whether or not you do is irrelevant, the argument you used to shoot down emily was flawed, in my opinion obviously not in yours, we simply have differing medical opinions. However, the point emily made about lamanites being cursed with darker skin in ancient times you tried to dismiss with unsound medical argument - you, like myself, JUST DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE WHAT COLOUR YOUR ANCESTORS WERE. I have a good indication that my ancestors were all really pale skinned, as I am commonly teased about my 'scottish blue' skin and freckles. However, I just do not know. My family have done their geneology back to when census records began in this country. What we have records for we know, what we do not, we do not know, just like you and everyone else on the planet. Just because you have never heard of blue eyed native americans being driven out of villages pre-cortez for having blue-eyes and being a witch - doesn't mean it didn't happen. And if it did - your whole argument falls to pieces. I wonder, have you heard about giant natives, over 7 and 8 feet tall?? They were documented by the spanairds, so were many other things documented - have you bothered to find out or have you (understandably) limited yourself to vocational reading material?? We just do not know and each of us have to make up our own minds. I actually logged onto this site to read an entry about a company I used to work for, I really am glad I read this thread, I was raised in the church and rebelled against my parents and have not studied spiritual matters for over 18 years. You may well be a reproductive endocrinologist but as far as I am concerned, your argument is flawed (even though you think you are correct) and you have not disproved any point emily made. The only thing you could attack her on was the eye colour thing, which is why I put my tuppence ha'penny worth in. Emily believes some native americans were descended from a family of israelites (including their household which in those days didn't just mean siblings) and were cursed with a mark on their skin. The records emily refers to (which you haven't read and therefore don't believe) terminate a couple of hundred years after a visitation to the continent by Christ. That leaves about 1200 years for other people to reach the shores of your continent and mix with the populace. Therefore, using your argument of your native american cousin and her blonde partner doesn't really cut it does it - you need to use differing examples. If your family were from India, or were of the african line, your cousin's children would definately have dark eyes - to me, that proves emily's point entirely. thanks for reading


Nahni

South Kingstown,
Rhode Island,
U.S.A.
Sorry, you are wrong again.

#10Consumer Comment

Tue, October 12, 2004

Tracey- evidently, you have trouble reading and understanding other people's posts yourself. Please read this again, because you are mixing up your "points". Let me break this down: 1. First of all, my last post was refuting your statement that brown eyes are always dominant over other colors. They aren't always, and this is the whole gist of my conversation with Emily. I am a reproductive endocrinologist as well as a geneticist, and this is something that I am not only "clinically" sure of, I have seen it happen. 2. You claim that you were speaking of two brown-eyed parents producing a blue-eyed child, yet this is what you wrote: "However, i distinctly remember my physiology lecuturer (sic) at nurse college telling the class that with respect to eye colour, the brown gene is more dominant than the blue gene. When a blue eyed and brown eyed person have a baby, the odds are that the baby will have dark eyes." Seems to me you were speaking of one brown-eyed parent and one blue-eyed at this point. 3. You wrote: "The point I made was about two BROWN eyed parents having a kid with NON-BROWN eyes - its entirely possible, but only if both parents have a repressed blue (or non-brown) gene. Your cousin's children have parents with differing eye colour, not the same (dark) eye colour." Okay... but so what? I don't argue that in two brown-eyed parents, at least one of them (not both, FYI) needs a blue gene to produce blue-eyed kids. My point was concerning two parents of differing eye colors. I apologize for saying you were wrong at the end of my last post, I assumed you were speaking of two different-eyed parents. 4. You wrote: "You doubt very much if there is a repressed blue gene in your family but you just don't know, do you?" As a matter of fact, I do know. Not only is your statement highly offensive, it's impossible. How do I know? Because when marrying each other, Native Americans don't produce blue-eyed kids (or green or grey or violet eyes, either)! They never have and still don't! If we all had a recessive blue-eyed gene, then some of our kids would have blue eyes! Even if it happened rarely- surely there would be two or three within my own tribe? On the east coast? In the whole of the USA? But there aren't. 5. You say, at one point, that only one of two brown-eyed parents needs a recessive gene to produce a blue-eyed child. Then you go ahead and use the example of my cousin to "prove" that a recessive gene is present within our bloodline, even though her husband has blue eyed! So which statement are you claiming is correct, your first or your second? 6. And lastly, "the example you used, in my opinion, proves her point entirely." Umm, how exactly? My example was provided to show you that genetics work in interesting ways, and that dominant/recessive genes are not cut-and-dry in humans. Try to get this through your head: a brown eyed person, regardless of his or her race, regardless of the fact that they ONLY have brown-eyed genes, can mate with a blue-eyed person and have blue-eyed kids! I actually proved that Emily's idea is inaccurate, because- let me recap this for you once more- the whole thing was based on dated ideas of genetics that have been proven to be wrong. It's a shame if this angers you and leads you to lash out at me with insinuated insults. Next time either come back with sensible, science-based arguements, or don't get involved if you can't accept being wrong. Sincerely,


Tracey

Edinburgh,
Other,
United Kingdom
Genetics in action Nahni?? Genetics affecting people's lives??

#11Consumer Comment

Tue, October 12, 2004

Should really have included this in my last post. Nahni You were very flippant when telling me to 'research into how genetics works "in action",when dealing with real live people, not examples in a book' after complaining yourself about my apparent flippancy. I'm actually a nurse. Maybe I am not a medical doctor like yourself, and I realise that in the states anyone can call themselves a doctor after 2 years training and gaining a diploma in any subject. I trained for four years to degree standard, the majority of my training was not in the classroom. So, as you can imagine, I do have a lot of knowledge about how genetics works 'in action with real live people' - please do not be so quick to dismiss people simply because you do not agree with their point of view. I'm sure many doctors hold differing views to yourself regarding various treatments for illness, and i know many scientists who would make sweeping generalisations like I did. My nurse training was completed in Edinburgh, Scotland, where we have the best and oldest established education system in the world. I would not have posted had I not felt qualified to comment, nor if I did not think the argument you were using against emily was flawed. She addressed the topic of this thread beautifully yet you brought her down with unsafe information, and flouting your credentials as sole justification for your being right and her being wrong. I'm glad I read this thread and joined this discussion - you may just have pushed me towards the LDS church Nahni - thank you and all the best!


Tracey

Edinburgh,
Other,
United Kingdom
your rebuttal just proved emily's point

#12Consumer Comment

Tue, October 12, 2004

Nahni I have studied genetics, possibly not to the same level as you obviously have recently to try to prove emily wrong, however the example you used, in my opinion, proves her point entirely. Your family is full blooded native american and can be traced back through this lineage to the 17th century. Your full blooded native american cousin married a blue-eyed blonde and their kids are blue-eyed and blonde. You doubt very much if there is a repressed blue gene in your family but you just don't know, do you? The point I made was about two BROWN eyed parents having a kid with NON-BROWN eyes - its entirely possible, but only if both parents have a repressed blue (or non-brown) gene. Your cousin's children have parents with differing eye colour, not the same (dark) eye colour. Please make sure pay attention to what people say/write before you decide they are wrong, the argument and justification you used had nothing at all to do with the argument and justification I used. I would have thought a doctor would have better listening/reading and interpretive skills. I find that overall, emily has presented a better case and you are merely angrily casting stones. Thanks for reading this


Nahni

South Kingstown,
Rhode Island,
U.S.A.
Eye Color & Genetics

#13Consumer Comment

Mon, October 11, 2004

Hello Tracey, and Emily- Emily, this first part of my response is specifically to you, in continuation of our discussion. I have not been on this website in a while, but I have been doing some research in my spare time as to the blue-eyed Native Americans question. To make a long story short, I have found absolutely nothing that suggests that any Native Americans possessed light colored eyes before mixing with Europeans. I have researched this medically, anecdotally, and through various Native folklore. I have also simply "asked around" my own family and my friends from other tribes. As for the "She Who Remembers" series, I have never heard of it. But just the fact that this blue-eyed Native woman was called a witch and ostracized points to the fact that light eyes were not just uncommon, they didn't happen under normal circumstances! Incidentally, there are several genetic defects that could've caused her to have blue eyes. She also may have been an albino. Albinism in darker skinned peoples often produces blue eyes and lighter hair, as opposed to the pinkish-tinted eyes and very pale hair of caucasian albinos. Tracy- I would now like to address the points you made in your reply. I realize that the brown-eyed gene is considered "dominant" to the blue-eyed gene, in a basic textbook kind of way. However, it doesn't work so plainly when applied to real reproducing humans. What many people tend to forget is that eye color is not a cut-and-dry dominant/recessive question, unlike some other aspects of inheritance. (Geneticists are still not even sure exactly how many genes go into deciding a baby's eye color, or frankly quite how it works.) Therefore, both parents do NOT have to have a recessive color gene, repressed or not. If your instructor told you otherwise, then he or she was either teaching dated material, or simply used a bad example. Your lecturer may have been trying to get the dominant/recessive idea across and was mistaken in choosing eye color to do it. You also stated that when a blue-eyed and brown-eyed person have a child together, the odds are that the baby will be dark eyed. I have to say that this is a generalization and not necessarily true. Let me give an example: My cousin is married to a caucasian guy with blue eyes, and both of their daughters have blue eyes. They are both blonde, too, like their father. But my cousin is a full-blooded Native American (as am I); our family can be traced back to the 17th century. Do we have a repressed recessive eye color gene? I highly doubt it. If we do, why does it not show up when we marry other Natives (who also should have this recessive gene)? If your statement that both parents need some kind of recessive gene were true, then my family ought to be able to produce light-eyed kids no matter what ethnicity they married into. Even if it happened rarely, it should still happen! However, it DOESN'T- not in my family or in any other native family I've heard of- and I've looked! This is the same point that I was trying to make to Emily. I also realize that there are many in-betweens when dealing with eye color, I am using blue and brown to simplify. Lastly, I would like to comment on this statement: "If one brown eyed parent had no ancestor with the blue gene, the kid would have dark eyes, end of story. If you don't believe me, ask any physiology teacher at university level - I'm sure they'll explain it exactly the same way." I think it is remarkably rash for you to say "end of story" in such a way. Frankly, I don't believe that you or a university-level teacher have the authority to make such grand and sweeping statments about a field that is still being explored. Nor do I care for your flippant manner. I am a medical doctor AND a geneticist and I can tell you that any physiology teacher who makes this claim is plainly WRONG, and has only a basic understanding of genetics without realizing just how complicated it truly is. Tracey, I would recommend that you do some research into how genetics works "in action",when dealing with real live people, not examples in a book. Lastly, Emily, this comment is to you. I realize the need to defend one's religion against people who insult it. I wasn't trying to be rude to you, only to point out that quoting faulty science can do more harm to your argument than good. Sincerely, Nahni


Tracey

Edinburgh,
Other,
United Kingdom
Genetics determining eye colour

#14Consumer Comment

Sat, October 09, 2004

Nahni I know this is a very late response on this thread, and i know you state you are a woman of the medical profession. However, i distinctly remember my physiology lecuturer at nurse college telling the class that with respect to eye colour, the brown gene is more dominant than the blue gene. When a blue eyed and brown eyed person have a baby, the odds are that the baby will have dark eyes. Could this be interpreted as the perpetuation of a bloodline? I dunno However, medicine, and therefore genetics, is not an exact science as you should well know. If it were, then David Bowie would not have one blue eye and one green eye neither would the eye colour 'hazel' exist. My eyes are hazel - a kind of beige colour round the pupil, blending into a murky green near the middle, getting darker green outwards until what looks like a very dark rim. If you look really closely, I have orange speckles in there too. In fact, I once had a boyfriend who's eyes were mainly green, except for three beige circles round the pupil on one eye - they were proper cirlcles too, almost looked like petals in a way, only there should have been 4 and 1 was missing. My point being, two people with dark eyes can have a blue eyed baby, or even a green eyed baby, or any mix of colour. However, the only way that is possible (with brown being more dominant than blue) is for both parents to have a repressed non-brown gene. This gene which was repressed in the previous generation(s) becomes strong in the baby being born. The baby doesn't only inherit one chromosome from each parent, each chromosome was formed from the genetic material of two people, ie one set of grandparents, who themselves were each composed of two lots of genetic material and so on and so on. If one brown eyed parent had no ancestor with the blue gene, the kid would have dark eyes, end of story. If you don't believe me, ask any physiology teacher at university level - I'm sure they'll explain it exactly the same way. So, if there were native americans with blue eyes before cortez and his lot arrived, then obviously, both parents of said blue eyed person had ancestors with blue eyes at some point down the line - else it wouldn't have happened.


Emily

Wichita,
Kansas,
U.S.A.
Thank you for your input...

#15Consumer Comment

Wed, September 01, 2004

Nahni Sorry to offend you with allegedly inaccurate scientific information. I quote only what I have learned through my education. The recessive genes information is very old, I took the class over twelve years ago and I know advances have been made, but as that is not my profession so I haven't been caught up on any of it. Blue eyed children were born to Native Americans long before America was "discovered" and settled. Have you read the "She Who Remembers" series? I cannot remember the author, but it is based upon a Native American woman who was blue eyed and called a witch and chased out of her tribe. It was far from common, but it did happen. Last I read a lot of scientists believed the blue eyed gene to be a deeply buried recessive trait that was received from Viking raiders. But there is, of course, no way to be sure. My theory matches with my religious beliefs. Since there is no way to test any hypothesis about this subject such theories are all we will ever have. Yes, I do consider blacks pure dark blood, if by blacks you mean African blacks living in tribal forms out in the middle of no where in the African outback. Completely without contact with other races. But I do not consider dark blood a bad thing. I think all peoples should be proud of their heritage, as I am of mine. I actually don't have a problem with whites having pride in their heritage as long as they don't use it to put other races down. I will exempt that "proof" from any I have provided. However I was only half heartedly trying to "prove" anything. In my experience you cannot convince people in any way to believe something they don't want to believe in, or to disbelieve anything they are determined to believe. I am only trying to defend my faith.


Nahni

South Kingstown,
Rhode Island,
U.S.A.
This is not "proof"!

#16Consumer Comment

Fri, August 27, 2004

Emily- I have no interest in bashing the Mormon religion (or advocating it), but I must comment on one of the examples you used as "proof" of we Native Americans' original heritage. This is what you wrote: "Yes, archeological proof has been found of the Book of Mormon... Or the fact that native americans can produce blue eyed babies when breeding with whites. Proof that a recessive blue eyed gene is present, not a possibility if the dark blood was pure." As a Native American AND a woman of the medical profession, I must tell you that your ideas of genetics and eye color are skewed. The fact that a Native American person and a white person can have a blue-eyed baby does NOT prove that there is a "recessive blue-eyed gene" in the Native American. It proves nothing. There are many factors involved when nature chooses an eye color for an infant; it is not just one simple gene from each parent. This is why, for example, it is possible for two blue-eyed people to produce a brown-eyed child. Dominant and recessive genes are NOT cut-and-dry when it comes to eye color, and if anyone has told you differently they are mistaken. Did you know that a person of ANY race who has a child with a blue-eyed individual has a good chance of coming out with a blue-eyed baby, and it does indeed happen? Even a black or Asian person. Do Mormons consider a black person as having "pure" "dark blood"? Also, if your statement were true, then two Native Americans having children together should be able to produce blue-eyed children on their own (since both would obviously have these recessive genes), at the same rate as two brown-eyed white people with "recessive blue-eyed genes". Which just doesn't happen. Again, I have no interest in this discussion, except for the fact I do not appreciate people using flawed religious science to "prove" something about my ethnicity.


Nahni

South Kingstown,
Rhode Island,
U.S.A.
This is not "proof"!

#17Consumer Comment

Fri, August 27, 2004

Emily- I have no interest in bashing the Mormon religion (or advocating it), but I must comment on one of the examples you used as "proof" of we Native Americans' original heritage. This is what you wrote: "Yes, archeological proof has been found of the Book of Mormon... Or the fact that native americans can produce blue eyed babies when breeding with whites. Proof that a recessive blue eyed gene is present, not a possibility if the dark blood was pure." As a Native American AND a woman of the medical profession, I must tell you that your ideas of genetics and eye color are skewed. The fact that a Native American person and a white person can have a blue-eyed baby does NOT prove that there is a "recessive blue-eyed gene" in the Native American. It proves nothing. There are many factors involved when nature chooses an eye color for an infant; it is not just one simple gene from each parent. This is why, for example, it is possible for two blue-eyed people to produce a brown-eyed child. Dominant and recessive genes are NOT cut-and-dry when it comes to eye color, and if anyone has told you differently they are mistaken. Did you know that a person of ANY race who has a child with a blue-eyed individual has a good chance of coming out with a blue-eyed baby, and it does indeed happen? Even a black or Asian person. Do Mormons consider a black person as having "pure" "dark blood"? Also, if your statement were true, then two Native Americans having children together should be able to produce blue-eyed children on their own (since both would obviously have these recessive genes), at the same rate as two brown-eyed white people with "recessive blue-eyed genes". Which just doesn't happen. Again, I have no interest in this discussion, except for the fact I do not appreciate people using flawed religious science to "prove" something about my ethnicity.


Emily

Wichita,
Kansas,
U.S.A.
So much hate...

#18Consumer Comment

Fri, July 02, 2004

Melissa Boy you have so much hate in you. The only reason I bother addressing your ludicrous statements is because I feel bad that you were hurt. Which is obvious because like Satan you want everyone to be as miserable as you are. First off I am named after my grandma, Emily also. No Emma in my family history. And personally I consider Emma weak because she left the faith. Although with all she had been through I don't really blame her for her weakness. Second a lot of people think white is delightsome. I am not one of them. To me white babies look weird because they often don't have hair or visible eyebrows or eyelashes. They are still cute in their way, all children are. But I love my mocha color as do my children. We have pride in our heritage. You disagree with my sentiment that many people think white is delightsome? Why are black people, asian people, fill-in-the-blank dark skinned people dying their hair blonde? Why do white trends like lattes, (which despite rough Italian roots is completely white america) SUV's, and hair relaxer (which takes away the frizziness that their hair normally has)catch on with the black american's? I believe my dark color comes from evil ancestors, Laman and Lemuel. They were made dark to tell them apart from the Nephites. Does that bother me? No it does not. Because when Christ came to the American continent we were His people. We became more righteous than the Nephites. And the scriptures foretells that in the last days the Lamanites will become a mighty force for good. I consider the incredible high baptismal rates of Mexicans and other "minorities" who are native to this continent to be that prophesy coming true. Do I believe blacks carry the mark of Cain, or the curse of Cain (same thing, not a persay curse)? Sure. Does that make them bad? No. Does that mean that Christ didn't visit them in Africa and we just haven't found the records yet? It seems to to you. Why only those that lived in that area at that time? Why when He said he had other sheep to visit was He not referring to us, or the africans, or the asians, etc.? Seems to me the world's close-mindedness to other possibilities, to the very possibility that He came for us too would make you racist, not us. Yes, Joseph died because he was in a gunfight. With a gun that wasn't his (taken off someone else who was injured), locked in a room surrounded by an angry mob, which he had no chance against, after watching his brother be killed beside him, his brother as himself had been unarmed. He was in the jail because of his religion. So if you want to go with senantics then yes his religion didn't kill him, a bullet did. Of course you could also say that Christ's beliefs didn't kill Him, nails and a spear did. He also did not commit rape or incest of little girls. He had multiple wives, yes. I find it amusing that you would protest that since you probably support gay marriage. Plural marriage is rampant througout the Bible too. The prophets of the Bible often had many wives. I would go into it further except I don't think you really care. As to little girls, if you mean young. Then yes at times they were. Since a girl of twelve should have already started preparing for marriage which might follow at anytime it was hardly rare. And it wasn't only in the church, it was the times. A girl of sixteen was thought to be bordering on old maidhood, if such a word exists. Yes, you do believe minority ancestors will go to hell. If you want to get right down to brass tacks you believe that "Christ will reveal himself in many ways to all his people". When pressed for a definition of how, they say things like "God is in nature". So somehow you seem to believe that a tree or a flower could have told my ancestors about Christ enough that they could accept Him as the Son of God, that He died for our sins, and pledge their lives to follow Him? Wow, and you thought we were wacked out. Look at what you believe. We believe the Bible is true in essence, but not entirely because of mistakes in translation. You believe entirely in a book that preaches the burning of witches, and the drowning (by tying a millstone around the neck) of infertile women, in a book that preaches little children teasing a bald man because he is bald deserve to be killed and/or eatten by a she-bear. Have their been changes to the Book of Mormon? You bet their have. Because man is not perfect and it is man that translates and update it. The Bible also states that a man (assumedly meaning a woman as well) who is not born of water cannot enter the kingdom of God. The work we do for the dead addresses that issue. And it isn't forced work, the dead have the choice to accept it or not. You and all other Christians that chose to church slam sure aren't very good followers of your religion. I don't see you following any of that. And you profess no pre-qualifiers that translation might confuse actual meanings. You have read the Bible? I don't think so. You and most other believe in the Trinity, are you aware that it was a manmade belief by the Catholic church during the dark ages to attract the pagen members of the surrounding communities? It had the mystery of the pagen gods which have different phases, i.e. the goddess as the maid, the mother and the hag. Belief in current times in the trinity makes just as little sense to me as it did then. I have had it explained as one thing in three forms, i.e. water as ice, water and mist. But it still makes no logical sense because only one form exists that this water is in at any one time. How did He appear as a bird above Himself when He was being baptised by John the Baptist? Why did he address himself "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." while on the cross instead of simply saying to them "I forgive you"? Your beliefs teach you not to inquire but to go on "blind faith". I question my religion and I have received my answers. What the heck is a recommended reading list? I have never heard of such a thing, except for what my kids bring home from a very much not mormon grade school. Do I read? Yes, I am a voracious reader. I cannot get enough of books. I have several hundred in my home, a minimal amount is church books. I am guessing this list was created to help people like you, married to a member, or investigating the church, a list to answer questions you might have. But I guess it is good that you avoid books, otherwise you might start thinking and questioning... Yes, archeological proof has been found of the Book of Mormon. Like the houses made of cement that a tribe lived in. Which ruins were discovered not so long ago. Or the fact that native americans can produce blue eyed babies when breeding with whites. Proof that a recessive blue eyed gene is present, not a possibility if the dark blood was pure. Which you loving science so much should know. I have never heard anywhere that Mary was not a virgin, or a lot of the other things you profess are our beliefs. These seem to be a lot of what one might call "pet doctrine". Meaning beliefs members create and wrongfully teach or spread. I have known a lot of these, but if they are not doctrine they are not our beliefs. I don't care for the rest of your "ravings" as you call them. They are garbage and not fit to address. But Anne Frank is not a religious martyr. Anne Frank died because she was a Jew, just like the vast majority of the victums of the holocaust. Not a Jew by religion, but a Jew by blood. A lot of ignorant people do not believe that Jewish blood exists, only the religion. I am a Jew by blood, not religion. If a Jew agreed to become a Christian Hitler did not spare them. He perpetrated a racial cleansing, not a religious cleansing. Maybe you should become more interested in history than in science. Although you didn't seem to know much about science either. Yes you are a bigot as are many who post here. You are a bigot because you preach hate against a group of people. We are not all the same. There are good and bad of us, as there are of any group. You are teaching segregation, prejudice, and hatered. Do you know how me and my church are different (I make no excuses for all members)? I don't laugh at your religion. It makes no sense to me and I don't believe in it, but I do not laugh at it. I give you freedom to persue the religion that will make you happy. You were not happy as a mormon, or married to one. I am sorry for your bad experience. I hope the anger and hatered that festers in your heart will depart and you will find peace through Christ. I do not wear the "magic underwear" but I hope to someday soon. I will respect your right to wear the cross even though I think it is a macabre symbol of Christ's death, instead of his ministry and the Atonement. And I will not laugh at you. I will respect the Jewish habit of wearing the yamaka or even the long curls that seen so amusing to so many. It is their right to dress and observe any religion they chose. I do not pity you because pity contains an element of contempt. I have compassion for you that you have become such a twisted soul over your experiences. I know the church is true, I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and restored the true gospel to the earth. I know that Jesus Christ lives and is God's son. I know that he atoned for our sins and that we can be saved only through his grace, (since only through perfection can we join him and being human we are flawed). I believe the Book of Mormon and the Bible to be the word of God, as far as they are translated correctly. I believe in the right to worship almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same priviledge, let them worship how where or what they may, and that means you Melissa. You can worship what you want, and teach hate, anger and laughter of other people's beliefs. But Christ never taught those things, he taught patiece and long suffering. I do hope your ex-husband was excommunicated because that is truly what he deserved. You recite what you do and how much you make as your successes in life. For that I feel you are very sad and misled. Success in life is based on how you treat your fellow man and how much love you give. I do not give hate to anyone. You are a bigot. It is not an attack it is a fact.Bigot (bgt) One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. By your own words, not those anyone has said of you, but by your own words, you are beyond a doubt intolerant. Jasper Missionaries are supposed to know that. Obviously you have encountered some overly enthusiastic ones. Kent I do not argue, I try to teach, to educate. Don't stoop to their level. Christ never did. We should always be examples of Him. You are better than that. Remember that always.


C.

Little Rock,
Arkansas,
U.S.A.
The Mormon Controversy

#19REBUTTAL Individual responds

Tue, June 22, 2004

I have been browsing around the Internet and reading all of the sites that criticize and degrade the Mormon Church. I have read with disgust and disbelief the venom that comes out of the mouths and heads of these people who would tear down a church without truly researching and understanding it in full. I cannot believe that there are so many people who are so easily led by the nose by taking what they read to heart without fuly understanding what they are reading. And you all call yourselves CHRISTIANS? You will only know if the LDS (Mormon) Church is true if you read the Book of Mormon WITH AN OPEN AND SINCERE HEART and pray to your God to let HIM testify to you through the Holy Spirit if the Book of Mormon is true. Otherwise...all you say is by Satan's promptings...NOT God.


Ramina

Hayward,
California,
U.S.A.
Hatred and Predjudice...

#20REBUTTAL Individual responds

Thu, February 12, 2004

There will always be evidence in some way, shape, or form that is capable of supporting any opinion about any subject. For example, if someone wants to say that "Mormons are dumb" there are no doubt going to be members of that faith who will surely behave in a manner that illustrates that yes, Mormons ARE dumb. This article has made the accusation that "Mormons are prejudiced" and has provided many quotes and comments that would support such an accusation. No person (or group or faith, for that matter) is made up of entirely good people or righteous people. Nearly every religion has had issues come up that have made the entire faith appear negative, but these incidences and problems do not and should not speak for all members of the religion (and the religion itself). The very root of the problem with predjudice is that too often, we take the actions or attitudes of a minority to speak for an entire majority, and that doesn't always provide us with an accurate view. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - in other words, I am a Mormon. I am also of mixed racial ancestry and go to church in a congregation that is just as racially diverse as I am - white, black, latino, filipino, asian, pacific islander, etc. While I have heard comments made by certain members of my congregation about other ethnicities that have not always been positive or accurate, I can truly say that in the 20 years that I have been a member of this faith, NEVER has the doctrine of my religion supported such comments. On other words, these comments have ONLY been the views of the individuals, and not the entire congregation. It is true that there was a time that the "Mormons" did not allow for those of African ancestry to hold certain positions of authority within the church. There was also a time when many other churches - Baptist, Protestant, etc - had segregated churches - seperate services for blacks and whites. I rarely hear anyone speak of the baptist church or any other faith as being prejudiced....I suppose it is easier to attack a religion that is less "popular" and a better target for criticism. The Catholic church has gone through some serious accusations as well. Should we say that "Catholic priest are molesters?" Absolutely not, because while there may be some priests out there who do not live righteously, the majority are probably just trying to live as best they can while serving their God. I am a Mormon. I am also an ethnic minority. Religion, unlike math or physics, is not an "exact" science. It requires more faith than logic, and that's not always an easy thing to understand. There will always be evidence to support negative statements about any religion, and that includes the Mormons. No one ever looking for the bad in something will ever be dissappointed, cause there will always be something to be found. But the same goes for looking for the good as well. I apologize to anyone out there who has been offended by a member of my faith, but I can tell you with complete assurity that their actions should not and do not speak for all of us. I respect the beliefs of others and I know that the only thing that can really conquer hate is love. And I think that's something we're all capable of, regardless of what church we attend.....


James

San Diego,
California,
U.S.A.
Not all Mormons are zealots

#21Consumer Comment

Tue, February 10, 2004

I came across this thread and just wanted to make a few comments. I was raised Catholic but the antisemitism and desperate grasp on old fashioned doctrine and beliefs eventually drove me away altogether. I am pretty liberal minded kind of guy. I was raised in a particularly diverse neighborhood, educated in the public schools, in otherwards - ethnic and racial lines were always very fuzzy for me, since i had the benefit of seeing other cultures from an early age, having sleep overs at their houses, birthday parties in barrio or the ghetto, etc. I do stencil graffitti, listen to everything from crusty oldschool punk to brit pop to ecletic british hip hop. I frequent our local goth/industrial clubs, and I vote green. ;) the point of all this is, is that when I met likeminded girl who enjoyed the same activities as me, I was floored to find out she was a practicing mormon. I met her friends and they too were people who I could easily get along with, judged absolutely no one, were of total mixed ethnicity and all attended church regularly. This may be a pretty rare event given the unfortunate attitude of the mormons i met while i was in salt lake for a short time. But there are mormons out there who are definetly the face of a new generation of LDS's and they've gone far beyond the original bigotry of the early days of the mormon church and exemplify true christian values while maintaing personal style. its really quite cool.


Jerry

Celestialville,
Arizona,
U.S.A.
Why is a cult a bad thing?

#22Consumer Comment

Mon, June 23, 2003

I read this site once in a while out of boredom, for humor and entertainment, for educating myself of hurtful people and practices, and for helping me choose the right way to live. Thank you for making my day with the poor English writing, went to college educated, closed-minded, under-achieving, poor descision-making people who lash out at one another in a Jerry Springerville fashion. Simply put, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are members of a true cult. According to the American Heritage Dictionary (and a few others as well), a cult is 1. A system or community of religious worship or ritual. 2.a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or bogus. b. Followers of such a religion or sect. 3.a. Obsessive devotion or veneration for a person, principle, or ideal, especially when regarded as a fad. b. The object of such devotion. 4. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest. These all ring true if you are not Mormon. I particularly like the bogus part, but am convinced LSD is a true religion as well. According to any non-Mormon (not anti-Mormon), Mormons are in a cult. Why is a cult a bad thing? A Catholic sorority can be considered a cult, as can a Christian bowling team if you use the term loosely. Where is the rip-off? Where is the bad business? Who has been hurt or had an injustice? Why is this crap on this website? So what if you are a member of a cult? The TRUTH is that if you are in a predominant population of any religion, creed, national origin, or whatever, and do not belong to that group or are different in any way, you will be considered a threat, unless you have what they want. The threat is responded with preferential treatment practices like hiring for leadership or choosing athletic team members from within the predominant population; in burying and avoiding damaging facts that could reveal powerful leaders as being a part of injustice. The threat is the very reason diabolical defense systems are created either in official pledges or in secret sessions. It leads to all sorts of injustice. It affects people directly by living in a predominantly Mormon community that only takes care of their own-kind. It affects them by creating too many children that become leaders that learn to keep dirty laundry private, to love all, but love your brother more. The injustice is knowing things like children of church leaders who get caught making bombs in high schools or caught cheating on a test are never disciplined. The injustice is knowing a lesser qualified, higher bidding contractor got the job. The injustice is seeing children suffer greatly from lack of state-of-the-art health education, available to all but communities run by a religious sect that does not agree. Who cares about history that is effectively denied? Do you really care what I believe? If so, is your faith is sound? I believe that questioning all religious beliefs is healthy and responsible behavior, that researching and finding inconsistencies is sound thinking for making sound decisions of any subject. I believe the best way to live is to treat all equally, but who really does that? You? Not me! I have humility and will be the first to admit my shortcomings (one of my strengths). Since a true member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can be viewed by the general population as being a member of a cult, I dont really care. So can a Jew, or a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a Hari Krishna, or my favorite door pounding, Watchtower tossing, Jehovahs Witness, also be considered to be a member of a cult. Awesome work Marni. Kudos! Melissa, will you marry me? Im terrestrial bound. Tim is cool. Kathleen, do you need a hug? LaDarrell...umm...Ron L. Hubbard will also be a long dead profit, if he hasnt already. Kent, how about you and Kathleen getting together for a bit of prayer?


Jerry

Celestialville,
Arizona,
U.S.A.
Why is a cult a bad thing?

#23Consumer Comment

Mon, June 23, 2003

I read this site once in a while out of boredom, for humor and entertainment, for educating myself of hurtful people and practices, and for helping me choose the right way to live. Thank you for making my day with the poor English writing, went to college educated, closed-minded, under-achieving, poor descision-making people who lash out at one another in a Jerry Springerville fashion. Simply put, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are members of a true cult. According to the American Heritage Dictionary (and a few others as well), a cult is 1. A system or community of religious worship or ritual. 2.a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or bogus. b. Followers of such a religion or sect. 3.a. Obsessive devotion or veneration for a person, principle, or ideal, especially when regarded as a fad. b. The object of such devotion. 4. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest. These all ring true if you are not Mormon. I particularly like the bogus part, but am convinced LSD is a true religion as well. According to any non-Mormon (not anti-Mormon), Mormons are in a cult. Why is a cult a bad thing? A Catholic sorority can be considered a cult, as can a Christian bowling team if you use the term loosely. Where is the rip-off? Where is the bad business? Who has been hurt or had an injustice? Why is this crap on this website? So what if you are a member of a cult? The TRUTH is that if you are in a predominant population of any religion, creed, national origin, or whatever, and do not belong to that group or are different in any way, you will be considered a threat, unless you have what they want. The threat is responded with preferential treatment practices like hiring for leadership or choosing athletic team members from within the predominant population; in burying and avoiding damaging facts that could reveal powerful leaders as being a part of injustice. The threat is the very reason diabolical defense systems are created either in official pledges or in secret sessions. It leads to all sorts of injustice. It affects people directly by living in a predominantly Mormon community that only takes care of their own-kind. It affects them by creating too many children that become leaders that learn to keep dirty laundry private, to love all, but love your brother more. The injustice is knowing things like children of church leaders who get caught making bombs in high schools or caught cheating on a test are never disciplined. The injustice is knowing a lesser qualified, higher bidding contractor got the job. The injustice is seeing children suffer greatly from lack of state-of-the-art health education, available to all but communities run by a religious sect that does not agree. Who cares about history that is effectively denied? Do you really care what I believe? If so, is your faith is sound? I believe that questioning all religious beliefs is healthy and responsible behavior, that researching and finding inconsistencies is sound thinking for making sound decisions of any subject. I believe the best way to live is to treat all equally, but who really does that? You? Not me! I have humility and will be the first to admit my shortcomings (one of my strengths). Since a true member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can be viewed by the general population as being a member of a cult, I dont really care. So can a Jew, or a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a Hari Krishna, or my favorite door pounding, Watchtower tossing, Jehovahs Witness, also be considered to be a member of a cult. Awesome work Marni. Kudos! Melissa, will you marry me? Im terrestrial bound. Tim is cool. Kathleen, do you need a hug? LaDarrell...umm...Ron L. Hubbard will also be a long dead profit, if he hasnt already. Kent, how about you and Kathleen getting together for a bit of prayer?


Jerry

Celestialville,
Arizona,
U.S.A.
Why is a cult a bad thing?

#24Consumer Comment

Mon, June 23, 2003

I read this site once in a while out of boredom, for humor and entertainment, for educating myself of hurtful people and practices, and for helping me choose the right way to live. Thank you for making my day with the poor English writing, went to college educated, closed-minded, under-achieving, poor descision-making people who lash out at one another in a Jerry Springerville fashion. Simply put, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are members of a true cult. According to the American Heritage Dictionary (and a few others as well), a cult is 1. A system or community of religious worship or ritual. 2.a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or bogus. b. Followers of such a religion or sect. 3.a. Obsessive devotion or veneration for a person, principle, or ideal, especially when regarded as a fad. b. The object of such devotion. 4. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest. These all ring true if you are not Mormon. I particularly like the bogus part, but am convinced LSD is a true religion as well. According to any non-Mormon (not anti-Mormon), Mormons are in a cult. Why is a cult a bad thing? A Catholic sorority can be considered a cult, as can a Christian bowling team if you use the term loosely. Where is the rip-off? Where is the bad business? Who has been hurt or had an injustice? Why is this crap on this website? So what if you are a member of a cult? The TRUTH is that if you are in a predominant population of any religion, creed, national origin, or whatever, and do not belong to that group or are different in any way, you will be considered a threat, unless you have what they want. The threat is responded with preferential treatment practices like hiring for leadership or choosing athletic team members from within the predominant population; in burying and avoiding damaging facts that could reveal powerful leaders as being a part of injustice. The threat is the very reason diabolical defense systems are created either in official pledges or in secret sessions. It leads to all sorts of injustice. It affects people directly by living in a predominantly Mormon community that only takes care of their own-kind. It affects them by creating too many children that become leaders that learn to keep dirty laundry private, to love all, but love your brother more. The injustice is knowing things like children of church leaders who get caught making bombs in high schools or caught cheating on a test are never disciplined. The injustice is knowing a lesser qualified, higher bidding contractor got the job. The injustice is seeing children suffer greatly from lack of state-of-the-art health education, available to all but communities run by a religious sect that does not agree. Who cares about history that is effectively denied? Do you really care what I believe? If so, is your faith is sound? I believe that questioning all religious beliefs is healthy and responsible behavior, that researching and finding inconsistencies is sound thinking for making sound decisions of any subject. I believe the best way to live is to treat all equally, but who really does that? You? Not me! I have humility and will be the first to admit my shortcomings (one of my strengths). Since a true member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can be viewed by the general population as being a member of a cult, I dont really care. So can a Jew, or a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a Hari Krishna, or my favorite door pounding, Watchtower tossing, Jehovahs Witness, also be considered to be a member of a cult. Awesome work Marni. Kudos! Melissa, will you marry me? Im terrestrial bound. Tim is cool. Kathleen, do you need a hug? LaDarrell...umm...Ron L. Hubbard will also be a long dead profit, if he hasnt already. Kent, how about you and Kathleen getting together for a bit of prayer?


Jerry

Celestialville,
Arizona,
U.S.A.
Why is a cult a bad thing?

#25Consumer Comment

Mon, June 23, 2003

I read this site once in a while out of boredom, for humor and entertainment, for educating myself of hurtful people and practices, and for helping me choose the right way to live. Thank you for making my day with the poor English writing, went to college educated, closed-minded, under-achieving, poor descision-making people who lash out at one another in a Jerry Springerville fashion. Simply put, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are members of a true cult. According to the American Heritage Dictionary (and a few others as well), a cult is 1. A system or community of religious worship or ritual. 2.a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or bogus. b. Followers of such a religion or sect. 3.a. Obsessive devotion or veneration for a person, principle, or ideal, especially when regarded as a fad. b. The object of such devotion. 4. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest. These all ring true if you are not Mormon. I particularly like the bogus part, but am convinced LSD is a true religion as well. According to any non-Mormon (not anti-Mormon), Mormons are in a cult. Why is a cult a bad thing? A Catholic sorority can be considered a cult, as can a Christian bowling team if you use the term loosely. Where is the rip-off? Where is the bad business? Who has been hurt or had an injustice? Why is this crap on this website? So what if you are a member of a cult? The TRUTH is that if you are in a predominant population of any religion, creed, national origin, or whatever, and do not belong to that group or are different in any way, you will be considered a threat, unless you have what they want. The threat is responded with preferential treatment practices like hiring for leadership or choosing athletic team members from within the predominant population; in burying and avoiding damaging facts that could reveal powerful leaders as being a part of injustice. The threat is the very reason diabolical defense systems are created either in official pledges or in secret sessions. It leads to all sorts of injustice. It affects people directly by living in a predominantly Mormon community that only takes care of their own-kind. It affects them by creating too many children that become leaders that learn to keep dirty laundry private, to love all, but love your brother more. The injustice is knowing things like children of church leaders who get caught making bombs in high schools or caught cheating on a test are never disciplined. The injustice is knowing a lesser qualified, higher bidding contractor got the job. The injustice is seeing children suffer greatly from lack of state-of-the-art health education, available to all but communities run by a religious sect that does not agree. Who cares about history that is effectively denied? Do you really care what I believe? If so, is your faith is sound? I believe that questioning all religious beliefs is healthy and responsible behavior, that researching and finding inconsistencies is sound thinking for making sound decisions of any subject. I believe the best way to live is to treat all equally, but who really does that? You? Not me! I have humility and will be the first to admit my shortcomings (one of my strengths). Since a true member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can be viewed by the general population as being a member of a cult, I dont really care. So can a Jew, or a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a Hari Krishna, or my favorite door pounding, Watchtower tossing, Jehovahs Witness, also be considered to be a member of a cult. Awesome work Marni. Kudos! Melissa, will you marry me? Im terrestrial bound. Tim is cool. Kathleen, do you need a hug? LaDarrell...umm...Ron L. Hubbard will also be a long dead profit, if he hasnt already. Kent, how about you and Kathleen getting together for a bit of prayer?


Tim

Grand Haven,
Michigan,
U.S.A.
Anecdotal evidence is far more powerful than reality

#26Consumer Comment

Fri, June 20, 2003

Marni... I'm glad you decided to post this, and I hope it will spark some good discussion! Here's my take on the issue... as a devout atheist, it is my opinion that advancements in the knowledge of how the world works have sufficiently shown all religions to be bogus. Yet still, 96% of Americans, and the great majority of people worldwide still adhere to religious faiths. In fact, the majority of the scholars throughout the years that have actually disproven theology were (and are) still in the pews come Sunday morning, or at least would tell you they believe in God. Humans have a natural tendency toward religion, and given what we know about how prone to suggestion the human mind is, blind faith is a VERY powerful thing. Here's what it comes down to in this case (or at least, this is my take on it). Those who choose not to hear the evidence probably just don't want their faith tainted. They feel that it's not the truth, so there's no reason to concern themselves with it. For those who hear the evidence and choose not to believe it, it's a different story. Take a look at the "alternative health" industry. Here's a mutli-billion dollar a year industry based on selling products that research says are worthless. Why do herbal vitamins sell so well when they are proven ineffective? Because they don't actually rely on research and evidence, in fact they claim that such research does not even pertain to their product, which is so wholly different from the traditional option that it can't be compared in the same way. They make up for the lack of empirical evidence by substituting anecdotal evidence. People use the product and attribute any improvement in their life to that product, research be damned! Anecdotal evidence is much more powerful than real evidence. People are much more prone to believe a person they know and trust, who may be completely unqualified to make such determinations, than some institution that is foreign to them, be it the FDA, the field of academia or whatever. Religion as a whole, and the Mormon church especially, is deeply rooted in anecdotal evidence. Your average Mormon is FAR more likely to believe his elder, who says the evidence is bogus but can't give a good answer why, than the archeologist who proves that the tribes described in the Book of Mormon never existed. This is why Mormons are hard pressed to put much stock into the evidence that counters the history of their religion. They are much more apt to believe the people who believe in the church than those who don't. However, this doesn't make Mormonism different from any other religion. Evidence abounds that EVERY religion has it wrong. People of all faiths make a judgement call and choose to believe that their church is the right one. In closing, I just want to state that I respect all faiths, and I feel that religion fills an important role in American culture. I don't buy into it, but that doesn't mean I think you shoudn't either. And as I extend my respect for your faiths, please have respect for my lack thereof and refrain from trying to convert me.


Melissa

Saint Louis,
Missouri,
U.S.A.
I know lots of good Mormons and I know lots of ignorant ones. I would never pigeonhole an entire religion.

#27Consumer Suggestion

Thu, June 19, 2003

1.) To Sandy the bimbette, it was you or one of your fellow Molly-Mormons that said I was mad because the church wouldn't pay my bills. This was irrelevant and disrespectful because I make my own money, and it's good money. Read the whole page, or would that make your little brain tired? 2.)So, if a Mormon husband cheats than it's because I wasn't enough, not because he was a cheating pig. I sure must've put his thing in the other ladies, all six times with each different one. Grow up you hag. Don't take the responsibility away from the offender. I'm sure if a man molests his daughter (something that seems to happen quite often in your church but it's covered up) then it's because the wife wasn't satisfying him? Your reasoning is archaic and deeply flawed. 3. I'm not a Christian? I don't run around proclaiming to be one. However, I don't belong to a church that believes Jesus and Satan were brothers, that God had sex with Mary, that Jesus was married. Your church does believe that. I believe in the trinity. Again, your church doesn't. People that live in glass houses shouldn't point fingers. Again, I don't proclaim to be the only Christian and know the only way, and I certainly don't claim to get revelations from God, unlike your church, which claims to be the only church and that those who are not Mormon do not know the truth. "I know this is the true church..." yada yada yada. 4.)Actually, you do fit cult definitions. Most churches have some characteristics. It's just that your cult has 10 or so traits. I like myself enough to leave a husband who cheats, to work at a great place with good money and to stay by myself until I find someone that is worth my time. I'm a beautiful woman, but beauty, class, education and wit doesn't guarantee a husband who's faithful no matter what church you're in. At least when I find one I won't have to share him with his other wives in heaven. I find it boring and predictable that people think that I have nothing better to do that cut someone's religion down. I have a job and actually I haven't been back to this site in some time. People like Sandy feel that if you are TRUTHFUL about the LDS religion then you obviously hate it. I had the same access to their information that they do, however I don't manipulate it. My sources are the churches own. www.bookofmormon.com I know lots of good Mormons and I know lots of ignorant ones. I would never pigeonhole an entire religion. You obviously, in your self-righteous anger, skipped over the nice things I said. That's obviously because the truth angers you. Maybe someday you'll wake up and toss off that tired ole magic underwear and see reality.


Marni

Queens,
New York,
U.S.A.
The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith

#28Consumer Suggestion

Wed, June 18, 2003

I am one that believes in Truth. When I am looking at something to see what Truth I can find in it, I look at the beginning and go from there. I would like all to read what I am posting, and then tell me what you think about it. Why is it that people were lied to about how the Mormon Church was started? Why is it, if the reason one started a religion all their own, does not "check out" to be truth, do so many then follow them? Do you not have the same access everyone else has to such information? Does your church keep this from you? If no, do you not also know how to research Egyptian scholars that can prove that Joseph Smith lied in what he said was sent to him, and what it said, and he is one to be followed, as per God? I have to apologize that the diagrams that are discussed in the following, do not show up here, but if one wishes to see them, I can send them out to you, so please let me know, and I will be happy to help you. I come in peace, so please be kind. I am only curious as to your answers... All sides of it! Thank you for you time! :- ) *************************** The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith There are many proofs that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, but Mormons typically, will not accept them. From the biblical evidence that contradicts Mormon theology, to the contradictions within its own history and doctrine, proofs abound. But Mormons, completely dedicated to their religion and their testimony, cannot and will not see the evidence. They rely not on biblical evidence, not on historical evidence, but rather trust a 'testimony' that Mormonism is the restored church and Joseph Smith its true prophet. One of the tests of whether or not a belief is grounded in reality is whether or not it can be proven to be true or false. If someone says, "I don't care what evidence you show me, I will always believe," then that person's faith is not rooted in reality. And since Christianity is a religion of history, crucifixion, resurrection, an empty tomb, etc., it is a religion rooted in reality. If it could be proven beyond doubt that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is a false religion. Likewise, if it could be proven that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, then Mormonism is a false religion. It just so happens that there is such a proof. The Book of Abraham Joseph Smith claimed that an angel appeared to him and revealed the location of some golden plates on which was written the account of the ancient people of the Americas. Joseph Smith later translated those plates into what is now known as the Book of Mormon. This translation was done by the power of God through special means. Joseph Smith, being the Lord's chosen instrument, became the prophet of the Mormon church, held the office of Seer. A Seer, according to the Book of Mormon in Mosiah 8:13, can translate records that are untranslatable. Hence, Joseph Smith was able to translate the golden plates into the Book of Mormon. But his Seer abilities did not stop there. In July of 1835, an Irishman named Michael Chandler brought an exhibit of four Egyptian mummies and papyri to Kirtland Ohio, then the home of the Mormons. The papyri contained Egyptian hieroglyphics. In 1835 hieroglyphics were unreadable. As Prophet and Seer of the Church, Joseph Smith was given permission to look at the papyri scrolls in the exhibit and to everyone's shock, revealed that "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt" (History of the Church, Vol. 2: 236. July 1835). The Church bought the exhibit for $2400. Joseph finished the translation of the Book of Abraham some time later, but the book of Joseph was never translated. The papyri were lost soon afterwards and thought to have been destroyed in a fire in Chicago in 1871. There was, therefore, no way to validate Joseph's translation. If the papyri were re-discovered and translated it would either prove or disprove the abilities of Joseph as a prophet of God. After all, he was supposed to be a prophet and have the abilities of a Seer as the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham supposedly proved. In October of 1880 The Pearl of Great Price, a collection of writings, which contained the book of Abraham, was recognized as scripture by the Mormon Church. The Papyri are found To every ones surprise, in 1966 the papyri were rediscovered in one of the vault rooms of the New Yorks metropolitan Museum of Art. The Deseret News of Salt Lake City on Nov. 27, 1967 acknowledged the rediscovery of the papyri. On the back of the papyri were "drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area."1 There could be no doubt that this was the original document from which Joseph Smith translated the book of Abraham. With the papyri rediscovered and Egyptian hieroglyphics decipherable since the late 1800's, it would then be an easy task of translating the papyri and proving once and for all that Joseph Smith was a prophet with the gift of "Seer" as he and the Mormon church have claimed. This would then prove the truth of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and would vindicate Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God. What do the Experts say? Joseph Smith copied three drawings from the Egyptian scrolls, labeled them Facsimile No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3, and incorporated them into the Book of Abraham with explanations of what they were. Egyptologists have viewed the drawings and found Joseph Smith's interpretation of them to be wrong. But, the Mormons, in defense of the sacred book, maintained that the Facsimiles alone were not sufficient to prove that Joseph Smith was erring in his translating abilities. With the rediscovery of the papyri, not only were there the same drawings in the scrolls, but so was the text from which Joseph Smith made his translation. It was now possible to absolutely determine the accuracy of Smith's translating abilities. Facsimile No. 1 Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 was of a bird as the "Angel of the Lord" with "Abraham fastened upon an altar," "being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh," etc. In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch."2 In the original papyri, this drawing is attached to hieroglyphics (See figure A) from which Joseph derived the beginning of the book of Abraham which begins with the words, "In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence"(1:1). In reality, the hieroglyphics translate as, "Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do."3 "It is the opening portion of an Egyptian Shait en Sensen, or Book of Breathings . . . a late funerary text that grew out of the earlier and more complex Book of the Dead." "This particular scroll was prepared (as determined by handwriting, spelling, content, etc.) sometime during the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50)."4 Figure A Figure A is a professional reconstruction of the original (Figure B). Note the hieroglyphics on the right side from which Joseph Smith began his translation of the Book of Abraham. In actuality, it "depicts the mythical embalming and resurrection of Osiris, Egyptian god of the underworld. Osiris was slain by his jealous brother Set, who cut up his body into 16 pieces and scattered them....The jackal-headed god Anubis is shown embalming the body of Osiris on the traditional lion-headed couch so that he might come back to life..."5 Figure B Figure B (to the right) shows a reprint of the actual papyrus used by Joseph Smith Note the areas where the Papyrus has been lost. It is in these that Joseph Smith "finished" the drawing resulting in Facsimile No. 1. His restoration, according to Egyptologists, reveals a complete lack of understanding of Egyptian practice and theology. Facsimile No. 2 As is explained by Joseph Smith and included in the Pearl of Great Price, the second drawing contains different scenes which Joseph Smith interpreted. They vary: "Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." "Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides." "God, sitting upon his throne, clothed with power and authority." "...this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key..." But again scholarship disagrees with Josephs rendition. "It is actually a rather common funerary amulet termed a hypocephalus, so-called because it was placed under (hypo) a mummys head (cephalus). Its purpose was to magically keep the deceased warm and to protect the body from desecration by grave robbers."6 Facsimile No. 3 According to Smith, this drawing shows "Abraham sitting upon Pharaohs throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood...King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head...Signifies Abraham in Egypt...Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince..." But this is not what the Egyptologists say is the meaning of the Facsimile No. 3 is. Instead, it shows, "the deceased being led before Osiris, god of the dead, and behind the enthroned Osiris stands his wife Isis."7 Conclusion It should be quite obvious that present scholarship has revealed that Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God as he had claimed. It follows that if he did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God, then it would be very easy to conclude that he did not translate the Book of Mormon by the power of God either. When Joseph first gave his translation, hieroglyphics were undecipherable. Today they are. He was safe in saying anything he wanted to and there would be no way of proving him wrong. But with the resurfacing of the same papyri he used to do his Book of Abraham translation, and the fact that he did not in any way do it correctly, should be proof enough that Joseph Smith lied about his abilities from God. He has been shown to be a false prophet.


Marni

Queens,
New York,
U.S.A.
The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith

#29Consumer Suggestion

Wed, June 18, 2003

I am one that believes in Truth. When I am looking at something to see what Truth I can find in it, I look at the beginning and go from there. I would like all to read what I am posting, and then tell me what you think about it. Why is it that people were lied to about how the Mormon Church was started? Why is it, if the reason one started a religion all their own, does not "check out" to be truth, do so many then follow them? Do you not have the same access everyone else has to such information? Does your church keep this from you? If no, do you not also know how to research Egyptian scholars that can prove that Joseph Smith lied in what he said was sent to him, and what it said, and he is one to be followed, as per God? I have to apologize that the diagrams that are discussed in the following, do not show up here, but if one wishes to see them, I can send them out to you, so please let me know, and I will be happy to help you. I come in peace, so please be kind. I am only curious as to your answers... All sides of it! Thank you for you time! :- ) *************************** The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith There are many proofs that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, but Mormons typically, will not accept them. From the biblical evidence that contradicts Mormon theology, to the contradictions within its own history and doctrine, proofs abound. But Mormons, completely dedicated to their religion and their testimony, cannot and will not see the evidence. They rely not on biblical evidence, not on historical evidence, but rather trust a 'testimony' that Mormonism is the restored church and Joseph Smith its true prophet. One of the tests of whether or not a belief is grounded in reality is whether or not it can be proven to be true or false. If someone says, "I don't care what evidence you show me, I will always believe," then that person's faith is not rooted in reality. And since Christianity is a religion of history, crucifixion, resurrection, an empty tomb, etc., it is a religion rooted in reality. If it could be proven beyond doubt that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is a false religion. Likewise, if it could be proven that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, then Mormonism is a false religion. It just so happens that there is such a proof. The Book of Abraham Joseph Smith claimed that an angel appeared to him and revealed the location of some golden plates on which was written the account of the ancient people of the Americas. Joseph Smith later translated those plates into what is now known as the Book of Mormon. This translation was done by the power of God through special means. Joseph Smith, being the Lord's chosen instrument, became the prophet of the Mormon church, held the office of Seer. A Seer, according to the Book of Mormon in Mosiah 8:13, can translate records that are untranslatable. Hence, Joseph Smith was able to translate the golden plates into the Book of Mormon. But his Seer abilities did not stop there. In July of 1835, an Irishman named Michael Chandler brought an exhibit of four Egyptian mummies and papyri to Kirtland Ohio, then the home of the Mormons. The papyri contained Egyptian hieroglyphics. In 1835 hieroglyphics were unreadable. As Prophet and Seer of the Church, Joseph Smith was given permission to look at the papyri scrolls in the exhibit and to everyone's shock, revealed that "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt" (History of the Church, Vol. 2: 236. July 1835). The Church bought the exhibit for $2400. Joseph finished the translation of the Book of Abraham some time later, but the book of Joseph was never translated. The papyri were lost soon afterwards and thought to have been destroyed in a fire in Chicago in 1871. There was, therefore, no way to validate Joseph's translation. If the papyri were re-discovered and translated it would either prove or disprove the abilities of Joseph as a prophet of God. After all, he was supposed to be a prophet and have the abilities of a Seer as the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham supposedly proved. In October of 1880 The Pearl of Great Price, a collection of writings, which contained the book of Abraham, was recognized as scripture by the Mormon Church. The Papyri are found To every ones surprise, in 1966 the papyri were rediscovered in one of the vault rooms of the New Yorks metropolitan Museum of Art. The Deseret News of Salt Lake City on Nov. 27, 1967 acknowledged the rediscovery of the papyri. On the back of the papyri were "drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area."1 There could be no doubt that this was the original document from which Joseph Smith translated the book of Abraham. With the papyri rediscovered and Egyptian hieroglyphics decipherable since the late 1800's, it would then be an easy task of translating the papyri and proving once and for all that Joseph Smith was a prophet with the gift of "Seer" as he and the Mormon church have claimed. This would then prove the truth of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and would vindicate Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God. What do the Experts say? Joseph Smith copied three drawings from the Egyptian scrolls, labeled them Facsimile No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3, and incorporated them into the Book of Abraham with explanations of what they were. Egyptologists have viewed the drawings and found Joseph Smith's interpretation of them to be wrong. But, the Mormons, in defense of the sacred book, maintained that the Facsimiles alone were not sufficient to prove that Joseph Smith was erring in his translating abilities. With the rediscovery of the papyri, not only were there the same drawings in the scrolls, but so was the text from which Joseph Smith made his translation. It was now possible to absolutely determine the accuracy of Smith's translating abilities. Facsimile No. 1 Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 was of a bird as the "Angel of the Lord" with "Abraham fastened upon an altar," "being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh," etc. In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch."2 In the original papyri, this drawing is attached to hieroglyphics (See figure A) from which Joseph derived the beginning of the book of Abraham which begins with the words, "In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence"(1:1). In reality, the hieroglyphics translate as, "Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do."3 "It is the opening portion of an Egyptian Shait en Sensen, or Book of Breathings . . . a late funerary text that grew out of the earlier and more complex Book of the Dead." "This particular scroll was prepared (as determined by handwriting, spelling, content, etc.) sometime during the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50)."4 Figure A Figure A is a professional reconstruction of the original (Figure B). Note the hieroglyphics on the right side from which Joseph Smith began his translation of the Book of Abraham. In actuality, it "depicts the mythical embalming and resurrection of Osiris, Egyptian god of the underworld. Osiris was slain by his jealous brother Set, who cut up his body into 16 pieces and scattered them....The jackal-headed god Anubis is shown embalming the body of Osiris on the traditional lion-headed couch so that he might come back to life..."5 Figure B Figure B (to the right) shows a reprint of the actual papyrus used by Joseph Smith Note the areas where the Papyrus has been lost. It is in these that Joseph Smith "finished" the drawing resulting in Facsimile No. 1. His restoration, according to Egyptologists, reveals a complete lack of understanding of Egyptian practice and theology. Facsimile No. 2 As is explained by Joseph Smith and included in the Pearl of Great Price, the second drawing contains different scenes which Joseph Smith interpreted. They vary: "Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." "Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides." "God, sitting upon his throne, clothed with power and authority." "...this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key..." But again scholarship disagrees with Josephs rendition. "It is actually a rather common funerary amulet termed a hypocephalus, so-called because it was placed under (hypo) a mummys head (cephalus). Its purpose was to magically keep the deceased warm and to protect the body from desecration by grave robbers."6 Facsimile No. 3 According to Smith, this drawing shows "Abraham sitting upon Pharaohs throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood...King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head...Signifies Abraham in Egypt...Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince..." But this is not what the Egyptologists say is the meaning of the Facsimile No. 3 is. Instead, it shows, "the deceased being led before Osiris, god of the dead, and behind the enthroned Osiris stands his wife Isis."7 Conclusion It should be quite obvious that present scholarship has revealed that Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God as he had claimed. It follows that if he did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God, then it would be very easy to conclude that he did not translate the Book of Mormon by the power of God either. When Joseph first gave his translation, hieroglyphics were undecipherable. Today they are. He was safe in saying anything he wanted to and there would be no way of proving him wrong. But with the resurfacing of the same papyri he used to do his Book of Abraham translation, and the fact that he did not in any way do it correctly, should be proof enough that Joseph Smith lied about his abilities from God. He has been shown to be a false prophet.


Marni

Queens,
New York,
U.S.A.
The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith

#30Consumer Suggestion

Wed, June 18, 2003

I am one that believes in Truth. When I am looking at something to see what Truth I can find in it, I look at the beginning and go from there. I would like all to read what I am posting, and then tell me what you think about it. Why is it that people were lied to about how the Mormon Church was started? Why is it, if the reason one started a religion all their own, does not "check out" to be truth, do so many then follow them? Do you not have the same access everyone else has to such information? Does your church keep this from you? If no, do you not also know how to research Egyptian scholars that can prove that Joseph Smith lied in what he said was sent to him, and what it said, and he is one to be followed, as per God? I have to apologize that the diagrams that are discussed in the following, do not show up here, but if one wishes to see them, I can send them out to you, so please let me know, and I will be happy to help you. I come in peace, so please be kind. I am only curious as to your answers... All sides of it! Thank you for you time! :- ) *************************** The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith There are many proofs that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, but Mormons typically, will not accept them. From the biblical evidence that contradicts Mormon theology, to the contradictions within its own history and doctrine, proofs abound. But Mormons, completely dedicated to their religion and their testimony, cannot and will not see the evidence. They rely not on biblical evidence, not on historical evidence, but rather trust a 'testimony' that Mormonism is the restored church and Joseph Smith its true prophet. One of the tests of whether or not a belief is grounded in reality is whether or not it can be proven to be true or false. If someone says, "I don't care what evidence you show me, I will always believe," then that person's faith is not rooted in reality. And since Christianity is a religion of history, crucifixion, resurrection, an empty tomb, etc., it is a religion rooted in reality. If it could be proven beyond doubt that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is a false religion. Likewise, if it could be proven that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, then Mormonism is a false religion. It just so happens that there is such a proof. The Book of Abraham Joseph Smith claimed that an angel appeared to him and revealed the location of some golden plates on which was written the account of the ancient people of the Americas. Joseph Smith later translated those plates into what is now known as the Book of Mormon. This translation was done by the power of God through special means. Joseph Smith, being the Lord's chosen instrument, became the prophet of the Mormon church, held the office of Seer. A Seer, according to the Book of Mormon in Mosiah 8:13, can translate records that are untranslatable. Hence, Joseph Smith was able to translate the golden plates into the Book of Mormon. But his Seer abilities did not stop there. In July of 1835, an Irishman named Michael Chandler brought an exhibit of four Egyptian mummies and papyri to Kirtland Ohio, then the home of the Mormons. The papyri contained Egyptian hieroglyphics. In 1835 hieroglyphics were unreadable. As Prophet and Seer of the Church, Joseph Smith was given permission to look at the papyri scrolls in the exhibit and to everyone's shock, revealed that "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt" (History of the Church, Vol. 2: 236. July 1835). The Church bought the exhibit for $2400. Joseph finished the translation of the Book of Abraham some time later, but the book of Joseph was never translated. The papyri were lost soon afterwards and thought to have been destroyed in a fire in Chicago in 1871. There was, therefore, no way to validate Joseph's translation. If the papyri were re-discovered and translated it would either prove or disprove the abilities of Joseph as a prophet of God. After all, he was supposed to be a prophet and have the abilities of a Seer as the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham supposedly proved. In October of 1880 The Pearl of Great Price, a collection of writings, which contained the book of Abraham, was recognized as scripture by the Mormon Church. The Papyri are found To every ones surprise, in 1966 the papyri were rediscovered in one of the vault rooms of the New Yorks metropolitan Museum of Art. The Deseret News of Salt Lake City on Nov. 27, 1967 acknowledged the rediscovery of the papyri. On the back of the papyri were "drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area."1 There could be no doubt that this was the original document from which Joseph Smith translated the book of Abraham. With the papyri rediscovered and Egyptian hieroglyphics decipherable since the late 1800's, it would then be an easy task of translating the papyri and proving once and for all that Joseph Smith was a prophet with the gift of "Seer" as he and the Mormon church have claimed. This would then prove the truth of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and would vindicate Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God. What do the Experts say? Joseph Smith copied three drawings from the Egyptian scrolls, labeled them Facsimile No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3, and incorporated them into the Book of Abraham with explanations of what they were. Egyptologists have viewed the drawings and found Joseph Smith's interpretation of them to be wrong. But, the Mormons, in defense of the sacred book, maintained that the Facsimiles alone were not sufficient to prove that Joseph Smith was erring in his translating abilities. With the rediscovery of the papyri, not only were there the same drawings in the scrolls, but so was the text from which Joseph Smith made his translation. It was now possible to absolutely determine the accuracy of Smith's translating abilities. Facsimile No. 1 Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 was of a bird as the "Angel of the Lord" with "Abraham fastened upon an altar," "being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh," etc. In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch."2 In the original papyri, this drawing is attached to hieroglyphics (See figure A) from which Joseph derived the beginning of the book of Abraham which begins with the words, "In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence"(1:1). In reality, the hieroglyphics translate as, "Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do."3 "It is the opening portion of an Egyptian Shait en Sensen, or Book of Breathings . . . a late funerary text that grew out of the earlier and more complex Book of the Dead." "This particular scroll was prepared (as determined by handwriting, spelling, content, etc.) sometime during the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50)."4 Figure A Figure A is a professional reconstruction of the original (Figure B). Note the hieroglyphics on the right side from which Joseph Smith began his translation of the Book of Abraham. In actuality, it "depicts the mythical embalming and resurrection of Osiris, Egyptian god of the underworld. Osiris was slain by his jealous brother Set, who cut up his body into 16 pieces and scattered them....The jackal-headed god Anubis is shown embalming the body of Osiris on the traditional lion-headed couch so that he might come back to life..."5 Figure B Figure B (to the right) shows a reprint of the actual papyrus used by Joseph Smith Note the areas where the Papyrus has been lost. It is in these that Joseph Smith "finished" the drawing resulting in Facsimile No. 1. His restoration, according to Egyptologists, reveals a complete lack of understanding of Egyptian practice and theology. Facsimile No. 2 As is explained by Joseph Smith and included in the Pearl of Great Price, the second drawing contains different scenes which Joseph Smith interpreted. They vary: "Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." "Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides." "God, sitting upon his throne, clothed with power and authority." "...this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key..." But again scholarship disagrees with Josephs rendition. "It is actually a rather common funerary amulet termed a hypocephalus, so-called because it was placed under (hypo) a mummys head (cephalus). Its purpose was to magically keep the deceased warm and to protect the body from desecration by grave robbers."6 Facsimile No. 3 According to Smith, this drawing shows "Abraham sitting upon Pharaohs throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood...King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head...Signifies Abraham in Egypt...Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince..." But this is not what the Egyptologists say is the meaning of the Facsimile No. 3 is. Instead, it shows, "the deceased being led before Osiris, god of the dead, and behind the enthroned Osiris stands his wife Isis."7 Conclusion It should be quite obvious that present scholarship has revealed that Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God as he had claimed. It follows that if he did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God, then it would be very easy to conclude that he did not translate the Book of Mormon by the power of God either. When Joseph first gave his translation, hieroglyphics were undecipherable. Today they are. He was safe in saying anything he wanted to and there would be no way of proving him wrong. But with the resurfacing of the same papyri he used to do his Book of Abraham translation, and the fact that he did not in any way do it correctly, should be proof enough that Joseph Smith lied about his abilities from God. He has been shown to be a false prophet.


Marni

Queens,
New York,
U.S.A.
The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith

#31Consumer Suggestion

Wed, June 18, 2003

I am one that believes in Truth. When I am looking at something to see what Truth I can find in it, I look at the beginning and go from there. I would like all to read what I am posting, and then tell me what you think about it. Why is it that people were lied to about how the Mormon Church was started? Why is it, if the reason one started a religion all their own, does not "check out" to be truth, do so many then follow them? Do you not have the same access everyone else has to such information? Does your church keep this from you? If no, do you not also know how to research Egyptian scholars that can prove that Joseph Smith lied in what he said was sent to him, and what it said, and he is one to be followed, as per God? I have to apologize that the diagrams that are discussed in the following, do not show up here, but if one wishes to see them, I can send them out to you, so please let me know, and I will be happy to help you. I come in peace, so please be kind. I am only curious as to your answers... All sides of it! Thank you for you time! :- ) *************************** The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith There are many proofs that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, but Mormons typically, will not accept them. From the biblical evidence that contradicts Mormon theology, to the contradictions within its own history and doctrine, proofs abound. But Mormons, completely dedicated to their religion and their testimony, cannot and will not see the evidence. They rely not on biblical evidence, not on historical evidence, but rather trust a 'testimony' that Mormonism is the restored church and Joseph Smith its true prophet. One of the tests of whether or not a belief is grounded in reality is whether or not it can be proven to be true or false. If someone says, "I don't care what evidence you show me, I will always believe," then that person's faith is not rooted in reality. And since Christianity is a religion of history, crucifixion, resurrection, an empty tomb, etc., it is a religion rooted in reality. If it could be proven beyond doubt that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is a false religion. Likewise, if it could be proven that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, then Mormonism is a false religion. It just so happens that there is such a proof. The Book of Abraham Joseph Smith claimed that an angel appeared to him and revealed the location of some golden plates on which was written the account of the ancient people of the Americas. Joseph Smith later translated those plates into what is now known as the Book of Mormon. This translation was done by the power of God through special means. Joseph Smith, being the Lord's chosen instrument, became the prophet of the Mormon church, held the office of Seer. A Seer, according to the Book of Mormon in Mosiah 8:13, can translate records that are untranslatable. Hence, Joseph Smith was able to translate the golden plates into the Book of Mormon. But his Seer abilities did not stop there. In July of 1835, an Irishman named Michael Chandler brought an exhibit of four Egyptian mummies and papyri to Kirtland Ohio, then the home of the Mormons. The papyri contained Egyptian hieroglyphics. In 1835 hieroglyphics were unreadable. As Prophet and Seer of the Church, Joseph Smith was given permission to look at the papyri scrolls in the exhibit and to everyone's shock, revealed that "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt" (History of the Church, Vol. 2: 236. July 1835). The Church bought the exhibit for $2400. Joseph finished the translation of the Book of Abraham some time later, but the book of Joseph was never translated. The papyri were lost soon afterwards and thought to have been destroyed in a fire in Chicago in 1871. There was, therefore, no way to validate Joseph's translation. If the papyri were re-discovered and translated it would either prove or disprove the abilities of Joseph as a prophet of God. After all, he was supposed to be a prophet and have the abilities of a Seer as the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham supposedly proved. In October of 1880 The Pearl of Great Price, a collection of writings, which contained the book of Abraham, was recognized as scripture by the Mormon Church. The Papyri are found To every ones surprise, in 1966 the papyri were rediscovered in one of the vault rooms of the New Yorks metropolitan Museum of Art. The Deseret News of Salt Lake City on Nov. 27, 1967 acknowledged the rediscovery of the papyri. On the back of the papyri were "drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area."1 There could be no doubt that this was the original document from which Joseph Smith translated the book of Abraham. With the papyri rediscovered and Egyptian hieroglyphics decipherable since the late 1800's, it would then be an easy task of translating the papyri and proving once and for all that Joseph Smith was a prophet with the gift of "Seer" as he and the Mormon church have claimed. This would then prove the truth of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and would vindicate Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God. What do the Experts say? Joseph Smith copied three drawings from the Egyptian scrolls, labeled them Facsimile No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3, and incorporated them into the Book of Abraham with explanations of what they were. Egyptologists have viewed the drawings and found Joseph Smith's interpretation of them to be wrong. But, the Mormons, in defense of the sacred book, maintained that the Facsimiles alone were not sufficient to prove that Joseph Smith was erring in his translating abilities. With the rediscovery of the papyri, not only were there the same drawings in the scrolls, but so was the text from which Joseph Smith made his translation. It was now possible to absolutely determine the accuracy of Smith's translating abilities. Facsimile No. 1 Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 was of a bird as the "Angel of the Lord" with "Abraham fastened upon an altar," "being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh," etc. In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch."2 In the original papyri, this drawing is attached to hieroglyphics (See figure A) from which Joseph derived the beginning of the book of Abraham which begins with the words, "In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence"(1:1). In reality, the hieroglyphics translate as, "Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do."3 "It is the opening portion of an Egyptian Shait en Sensen, or Book of Breathings . . . a late funerary text that grew out of the earlier and more complex Book of the Dead." "This particular scroll was prepared (as determined by handwriting, spelling, content, etc.) sometime during the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50)."4 Figure A Figure A is a professional reconstruction of the original (Figure B). Note the hieroglyphics on the right side from which Joseph Smith began his translation of the Book of Abraham. In actuality, it "depicts the mythical embalming and resurrection of Osiris, Egyptian god of the underworld. Osiris was slain by his jealous brother Set, who cut up his body into 16 pieces and scattered them....The jackal-headed god Anubis is shown embalming the body of Osiris on the traditional lion-headed couch so that he might come back to life..."5 Figure B Figure B (to the right) shows a reprint of the actual papyrus used by Joseph Smith Note the areas where the Papyrus has been lost. It is in these that Joseph Smith "finished" the drawing resulting in Facsimile No. 1. His restoration, according to Egyptologists, reveals a complete lack of understanding of Egyptian practice and theology. Facsimile No. 2 As is explained by Joseph Smith and included in the Pearl of Great Price, the second drawing contains different scenes which Joseph Smith interpreted. They vary: "Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." "Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides." "God, sitting upon his throne, clothed with power and authority." "...this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key..." But again scholarship disagrees with Josephs rendition. "It is actually a rather common funerary amulet termed a hypocephalus, so-called because it was placed under (hypo) a mummys head (cephalus). Its purpose was to magically keep the deceased warm and to protect the body from desecration by grave robbers."6 Facsimile No. 3 According to Smith, this drawing shows "Abraham sitting upon Pharaohs throne, by the politeness of the king, with a crown upon his head, representing the Priesthood...King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head...Signifies Abraham in Egypt...Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince..." But this is not what the Egyptologists say is the meaning of the Facsimile No. 3 is. Instead, it shows, "the deceased being led before Osiris, god of the dead, and behind the enthroned Osiris stands his wife Isis."7 Conclusion It should be quite obvious that present scholarship has revealed that Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God as he had claimed. It follows that if he did not translate the Book of Abraham by the power of God, then it would be very easy to conclude that he did not translate the Book of Mormon by the power of God either. When Joseph first gave his translation, hieroglyphics were undecipherable. Today they are. He was safe in saying anything he wanted to and there would be no way of proving him wrong. But with the resurfacing of the same papyri he used to do his Book of Abraham translation, and the fact that he did not in any way do it correctly, should be proof enough that Joseph Smith lied about his abilities from God. He has been shown to be a false prophet.


Jasper

Chicago,
Illinois,
U.S.A.
Take a chill pill

#32Consumer Comment

Thu, April 03, 2003

First off, I am not Morman. Melissa, relax. Your income and military service has no bearing on this topic. Some of the language you use does not bear a very Christian attitude. As far as the Mormans, you have your beliefs and I have mine and never the two shall meet, UNTIL your missionaries come knocking on my door.

I will answer the door and politely tell them that I attend the church of my choice, and have my own beliefs. Sometimes I don't even agree with my church. For some reason this does not satisfy the people at my door, never a person, always 2 or more. That's when I have to get nasty with them.

For all you Morman defenders, please try to get across to your missionaries, when someone says NO THANK YOU, the kindly leave the doorway. Maybe the next time I should just call the police and let them take care of it, but then would I be accused of harrassing the Mormans? I'll let you know because they come thru the area fairly often.


Kathleen

Sandy,
Utah,
U.S.A.
Non-Christian NUT from Missouri aka "MISERY"

#33UPDATE Employee

Thu, April 03, 2003

This is for melissa-----
1. Who cares how much you make?? Is that supposed to be impressive? I make good money also and work hard for the things I have.

2. As for your "mormon husband", you obviously weren't enough for him!!?? It had nothing to do with him being a Mormon!

3. You are most definately not a Christian. Real Christians would not cut people or churches down the way you have.

4. Just because the Mormon Church is mentioned in www.cultwatch.com DOES NOT mean they are a cult. That site is probably just like the Enquirer, if someone says it, they will print it..

5. You do not have to be a slave to the Mormon Church to get "IN". It's all about caring, helpful human beings that will do anything to help people in need.

6. I guarantee if you've "researched" anything, you missed mentioning the good things about the Mormons.

I am LDS and proud to admit it! I was born and raised in Kansas and proud to admit that also!!

I am not one to stand back and not say anything when something I believe in is being talked about. I am very opinionated, my husband would agree with me on that, and will always stand behind behind my family, church, my home state, and my friends. So if you think you are intelligent for saying the things that you did, you are very mistaken. All it proves is that you must not like yourself very much since all you do is cut people and religons down.

So what,,,big deal,,,so your mormon husband did you wrong, or so you say..that does not make all of us Mormons bad!!!


LaDarrell

Salt Lake City,
Utah,
U.S.A.
Many of us Mormons are "magic underwear" wearing Brothers!

#34UPDATE Employee

Wed, April 02, 2003

Lordy, Lordy the ignorance of those who say there are no true black Mormons! I have been brought up to worship Meroni and so have many of the brothers. Many of you know that Gladys Knight is a Mormon sister. But did you know that so is LL Cool J? And so is Lester Holt from MSNBC? Let's not forget Barry Bonds, Hammer, and Lola Falana. Amen, brothers!

When we worship at the tabernacle and give our hearts to Meroni, Meroni is colorblind. He loves all his chilluns, yes suh! If the white devil can take over our Baptist faith, then why can't we be Mormons? You sir are fond of quoting from long dead 19th century prophets, but what of the 20th century prophet L. Ron Hubbard, who talked about the "rainbow of children" kissing on Meroni's feet? Praise God for Victory!


Kent

Sandy,
Utah,
U.S.A.
Same old Predictable crap from a bigot ..Typically You're A woman scorned!

#35UPDATE Employee

Wed, April 02, 2003

Hey B/#ch I can Call Names TO
Now that I've dropped to you're level
Don't flatter yourself you are not any kind of a Christian in any form, there is not part one in the Bible that tells you to poke holes or condemn any person for there beliefs rember the part about judge not less you be judged that means do not pass judgment on anyone you idiot. All the Bible teaches is love. And I was not trying to insult you before but I am just as capable as the next to do so.

Or is this just more of the same blah blah blah
and you still cant grasp the idea that you're hateful spewing is doing nothing more than spreading a non Christian attitude you are being blinded by you're own hate! What would my Bishop say? what would you're pastor say? Where In the Bible does it say Melissa has the God given right to Insult , judge and condemn or poke holes at all people who do not believe what she is saying.

You sound like a Broken record repeated threw history time and time again and the bottom line is always the same Hate because you fear what you don't understand.

As Far as Making $42,000 a year big deal that s good money in East St Louis that's about it, and if you were in the military you sure never got a grasp of what it was about So let me clue you in Freedom, Freedom of speech Freedom Of Religion Freedom of choice, yours, mine, Freedom for all Americans so knock of the holier than you Patriotic American act.

As far as standing up to criticism, proven track record. Try being driven from you're home in the middle of winter by a drunken Mob .having you're husband or wife killed. Forced out into the wilderness not once but three times. Now tell me this shit didn't really happen.

Why because scared little people didn't understand its an age old tradition to destroy that witch is different, Its True were told to ignore people like you and why shouldn't we after a 180 years of the same crap repeated by one idiot after another! Now tell me where the original ideas stem from.

Nothing you say is new its just the same old hate spread time and time again. The next time you use the words predictable or typical Mormon, Response or the term original idea sign it typical stereotype Hateful Bigot. And get a few new ideas of you're own you shmuck we've all heard this before.

You need to get you're facts straight over all you have demonstrated you know absolutely nothing about The LDS Faith! could be another reason no one else has replied there to busy rolling on the floor laughing! If you know nothing of Owens book of the cults who ever you get you're facts from sure does. I also Went to college And my Field tells me This is Misdirected anger stemming from a bad personal experience Most likely that back sliding Mormon ex Husband a transfer of hate so thanks to him were all scum, in you're eyes Typically You're A woman scorned!
Try That For predictable and Boring.


Melissa

Saint Louis,
Missouri,
U.S.A.
You are so predictable and Boring Kent

#36Consumer Comment

Tue, April 01, 2003

Hey a hole,
I make $42,000 a year. I served in the military (my own mission), I went to college and I happily divorced my backslid Mormon husband some years ago because he was an committing adultry.

I'm quite able to pay my rent without him. Thanks very much. Oh, and I give my money to those who deserve it, like the poor, the homeless, victims of terrorism. You know, unlike your prophet, my God didn't tell me to hold off on giving my money to the September 11th victims.

My God inspired me to give. Your prophet was concerned about your church losing out on all those tithes. Sad.

My money doesn't go to build some ugly, quite like the Tower of Babel, temple.
In God's house, everyone is welcome.

In the Mormon Church, you must wear majic underwear and be a slave to the church to get in.
The spirit of the mormon people is touching, the fakeness and snobbery of it's people is also a turnoff.

Who is Owens? I just know that leaving the church is hard for many. The Nazi-esque Missionaries who can't take a hint and bishops that lose your exit letter. I know someone who I love very much who left the church and it was hell for her. It is a cult. Most church's have points of interest to cultwatchers, but yours, well, you guys have won the Emmy for most cultlike. Look it up on www.cultwatch.com
I happen to have researched www.bookofmormon.com to find my information. Thanks. Hmmm. Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants and the weird writings of your earliest leaders.

Sorry, I believe the Bible is a perfect guide to life today. I don't believe your book of mormon is anything more than a ripoff of the bible. In fact, nothing that Jo Smith predicted has come true and that is not inspiring to me.
If you are trying to insult me, I've never been to Kansas City so I don't care if it smells or not. I live 5 hours from there.

Kent, if your church is so true and your doctrine so inspired, it should be able to stand up to critisism. I am surprised that you would even be here since this is not on your recommended reading list. What would your Bishop say? After all, we are all swine.

What I find amusing is that you repeat the same stuff that everyone in the church does. Do any of you ever have an original thought? Have you ever considered why people want nothing to do with your church? Maybe it's because its an isolotionist, elitist cult. Sorry, I don't need to get my guidance from anyone but God. I pray, I try to live right and I have love for others. However, I pity those that think that Mormonism is Christianity and I as a Christian have a duty to poke holes in your very sad, very contrived ideology.

The following makes me want to puke:
I know this church is true. It is the one true church.

I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet.
I didn't say it would be easy, I did say it would be worth it.

Blah, blah, blah. Boring.
And as for my mormon bashing, why is it okay for Emily but no one else. It just illustrates that you guys believe that you are right, privileged and justified in your disgusting behaviors. She used the story of Jesus throwing the moneychangers out of the temple.

Funny, because I happen to know that you have cash registers in your temple and you can rent garments. Hmmm. You guys are the real moneychangers.


Kent

Sandy,
Utah,
U.S.A.
Typical Hate Spreading Fool

#37UPDATE Employee

Tue, April 01, 2003

Hey Melissa What's the matter ?
Did The Church Refuse to pay you're rent.
The majority of what I've read on this post is straight out of a book by Owens. The book of the cults. so you might want to be careful of violating copy write laws. you know the one sold threw the national Enquire.

I've never read such a crock of crap concerning the LDS Faith. First off Guess what Joseph Smith died in a gunfight. Right Melissa The Carthage city Jail Has long sold hand guns to its prisoners. it was a Gunfight of sorts a bunch of cowards came in the night and open fire on the prisoners. And I Am Not an uniformed LDS Member But a rebellious soul who took time to act as a student of many faiths. but I have a small problem I need answers to my questions. I want to know things like if this is the only life in the universe why did god make so many planets.

I want to Know What happens After I Pass over and sitting at the feet of god and singing all day Just doesn't seem to fill in all the blanks. God Has A greater plan and we are only a small part of this plan he has a much greater overall idea. we do not believe minority ancestors will go to hell. because we do not believe in hell The way many are taught to believe the aspect of hell to be. And Further More I can never rember reading such a hate filled spew of trash from one post.

As far as being sheltered I can tell you how the Plaza in Kansas city smells like roasted peanuts and sour beer during the summer and if you want an exotic show go to Benton Blvd and Prospect on the Mo. side and if you're white stay off Armor Blvd At night.

I can tell you How the Aurora borealis looks on a freezing January night from Mile 114 of the Richardson Hwy.., As its light Dance across a darkened sky. That chullkute Charlies in Anchorage is a tourist trap and the best seafood in the city is at a little out of the way Mom and Pop on mountain view drive and Bragaw street.

That Pappys in Pompano Florida is the place to go if you want to party till 5 am.
And don't jump in the gulf in January.

I can tell you these things because I've been there experienced it weighed the out come and formed my own decisions Just as I have with the teachings of the LDS Church.

I believe Jesus is the son of god, I believe he died on the cross for my sins, I believe threw him I shall have ever lasting life. I have asked Jesus into my heart. I profess with my mouth what I feel in my heart I have been baptized in his name I am a Christian and I am LDS! .

Now that being said A gentle peace has over come me and I no longer wish to bash you the way I had first intended. So in closing, if We are indeed a cult and doomed straight to hell. When you pass over ill beholding the door wide open for you no true Christian I've ever met would say the things you've said or express such hateful remarks about another child of god! don't believe me fine judge not less you be judged.

Sickened And Saddened By Ignorance


Emily Rember You Cant argue with stupidity
Stay true to youre belifes. If it wasnt so hard it wouldnt be so right.


Kent

Sandy,
Utah,
U.S.A.
Typical Hate Spreading Fool

#38UPDATE Employee

Tue, April 01, 2003

Hey Melissa What's the matter ?
Did The Church Refuse to pay you're rent.
The majority of what I've read on this post is straight out of a book by Owens. The book of the cults. so you might want to be careful of violating copy write laws. you know the one sold threw the national Enquire.

I've never read such a crock of crap concerning the LDS Faith. First off Guess what Joseph Smith died in a gunfight. Right Melissa The Carthage city Jail Has long sold hand guns to its prisoners. it was a Gunfight of sorts a bunch of cowards came in the night and open fire on the prisoners. And I Am Not an uniformed LDS Member But a rebellious soul who took time to act as a student of many faiths. but I have a small problem I need answers to my questions. I want to know things like if this is the only life in the universe why did god make so many planets.

I want to Know What happens After I Pass over and sitting at the feet of god and singing all day Just doesn't seem to fill in all the blanks. God Has A greater plan and we are only a small part of this plan he has a much greater overall idea. we do not believe minority ancestors will go to hell. because we do not believe in hell The way many are taught to believe the aspect of hell to be. And Further More I can never rember reading such a hate filled spew of trash from one post.

As far as being sheltered I can tell you how the Plaza in Kansas city smells like roasted peanuts and sour beer during the summer and if you want an exotic show go to Benton Blvd and Prospect on the Mo. side and if you're white stay off Armor Blvd At night.

I can tell you How the Aurora borealis looks on a freezing January night from Mile 114 of the Richardson Hwy.., As its light Dance across a darkened sky. That chullkute Charlies in Anchorage is a tourist trap and the best seafood in the city is at a little out of the way Mom and Pop on mountain view drive and Bragaw street.

That Pappys in Pompano Florida is the place to go if you want to party till 5 am.
And don't jump in the gulf in January.

I can tell you these things because I've been there experienced it weighed the out come and formed my own decisions Just as I have with the teachings of the LDS Church.

I believe Jesus is the son of god, I believe he died on the cross for my sins, I believe threw him I shall have ever lasting life. I have asked Jesus into my heart. I profess with my mouth what I feel in my heart I have been baptized in his name I am a Christian and I am LDS! .

Now that being said A gentle peace has over come me and I no longer wish to bash you the way I had first intended. So in closing, if We are indeed a cult and doomed straight to hell. When you pass over ill beholding the door wide open for you no true Christian I've ever met would say the things you've said or express such hateful remarks about another child of god! don't believe me fine judge not less you be judged.

Sickened And Saddened By Ignorance


Emily Rember You Cant argue with stupidity
Stay true to youre belifes. If it wasnt so hard it wouldnt be so right.


Kent

Sandy,
Utah,
U.S.A.
Typical Hate Spreading Fool

#39UPDATE Employee

Tue, April 01, 2003

Hey Melissa What's the matter ?
Did The Church Refuse to pay you're rent.
The majority of what I've read on this post is straight out of a book by Owens. The book of the cults. so you might want to be careful of violating copy write laws. you know the one sold threw the national Enquire.

I've never read such a crock of crap concerning the LDS Faith. First off Guess what Joseph Smith died in a gunfight. Right Melissa The Carthage city Jail Has long sold hand guns to its prisoners. it was a Gunfight of sorts a bunch of cowards came in the night and open fire on the prisoners. And I Am Not an uniformed LDS Member But a rebellious soul who took time to act as a student of many faiths. but I have a small problem I need answers to my questions. I want to know things like if this is the only life in the universe why did god make so many planets.

I want to Know What happens After I Pass over and sitting at the feet of god and singing all day Just doesn't seem to fill in all the blanks. God Has A greater plan and we are only a small part of this plan he has a much greater overall idea. we do not believe minority ancestors will go to hell. because we do not believe in hell The way many are taught to believe the aspect of hell to be. And Further More I can never rember reading such a hate filled spew of trash from one post.

As far as being sheltered I can tell you how the Plaza in Kansas city smells like roasted peanuts and sour beer during the summer and if you want an exotic show go to Benton Blvd and Prospect on the Mo. side and if you're white stay off Armor Blvd At night.

I can tell you How the Aurora borealis looks on a freezing January night from Mile 114 of the Richardson Hwy.., As its light Dance across a darkened sky. That chullkute Charlies in Anchorage is a tourist trap and the best seafood in the city is at a little out of the way Mom and Pop on mountain view drive and Bragaw street.

That Pappys in Pompano Florida is the place to go if you want to party till 5 am.
And don't jump in the gulf in January.

I can tell you these things because I've been there experienced it weighed the out come and formed my own decisions Just as I have with the teachings of the LDS Church.

I believe Jesus is the son of god, I believe he died on the cross for my sins, I believe threw him I shall have ever lasting life. I have asked Jesus into my heart. I profess with my mouth what I feel in my heart I have been baptized in his name I am a Christian and I am LDS! .

Now that being said A gentle peace has over come me and I no longer wish to bash you the way I had first intended. So in closing, if We are indeed a cult and doomed straight to hell. When you pass over ill beholding the door wide open for you no true Christian I've ever met would say the things you've said or express such hateful remarks about another child of god! don't believe me fine judge not less you be judged.

Sickened And Saddened By Ignorance


Emily Rember You Cant argue with stupidity
Stay true to youre belifes. If it wasnt so hard it wouldnt be so right.


Kent

Sandy,
Utah,
U.S.A.
Typical Hate Spreading Fool

#40UPDATE Employee

Tue, April 01, 2003

Hey Melissa What's the matter ?
Did The Church Refuse to pay you're rent.
The majority of what I've read on this post is straight out of a book by Owens. The book of the cults. so you might want to be careful of violating copy write laws. you know the one sold threw the national Enquire.

I've never read such a crock of crap concerning the LDS Faith. First off Guess what Joseph Smith died in a gunfight. Right Melissa The Carthage city Jail Has long sold hand guns to its prisoners. it was a Gunfight of sorts a bunch of cowards came in the night and open fire on the prisoners. And I Am Not an uniformed LDS Member But a rebellious soul who took time to act as a student of many faiths. but I have a small problem I need answers to my questions. I want to know things like if this is the only life in the universe why did god make so many planets.

I want to Know What happens After I Pass over and sitting at the feet of god and singing all day Just doesn't seem to fill in all the blanks. God Has A greater plan and we are only a small part of this plan he has a much greater overall idea. we do not believe minority ancestors will go to hell. because we do not believe in hell The way many are taught to believe the aspect of hell to be. And Further More I can never rember reading such a hate filled spew of trash from one post.

As far as being sheltered I can tell you how the Plaza in Kansas city smells like roasted peanuts and sour beer during the summer and if you want an exotic show go to Benton Blvd and Prospect on the Mo. side and if you're white stay off Armor Blvd At night.

I can tell you How the Aurora borealis looks on a freezing January night from Mile 114 of the Richardson Hwy.., As its light Dance across a darkened sky. That chullkute Charlies in Anchorage is a tourist trap and the best seafood in the city is at a little out of the way Mom and Pop on mountain view drive and Bragaw street.

That Pappys in Pompano Florida is the place to go if you want to party till 5 am.
And don't jump in the gulf in January.

I can tell you these things because I've been there experienced it weighed the out come and formed my own decisions Just as I have with the teachings of the LDS Church.

I believe Jesus is the son of god, I believe he died on the cross for my sins, I believe threw him I shall have ever lasting life. I have asked Jesus into my heart. I profess with my mouth what I feel in my heart I have been baptized in his name I am a Christian and I am LDS! .

Now that being said A gentle peace has over come me and I no longer wish to bash you the way I had first intended. So in closing, if We are indeed a cult and doomed straight to hell. When you pass over ill beholding the door wide open for you no true Christian I've ever met would say the things you've said or express such hateful remarks about another child of god! don't believe me fine judge not less you be judged.

Sickened And Saddened By Ignorance


Emily Rember You Cant argue with stupidity
Stay true to youre belifes. If it wasnt so hard it wouldnt be so right.


Melissa

Saint Louis,
Missouri,
U.S.A.
Typical Vapid Brainwashed LDS Woman has Illustrated What Critics Of the Church are Worried About

#41Consumer Comment

Mon, March 31, 2003

Hey Emily,( or shall I call you Emma, after the first Ms. Smith,) Ms. Brainwashed and Typical Mormon Baby-maker, What does White and delightsome mean to you? Something to do with American Indians turning colors. Hmmmmm.

I remember reading that African Americans had the mark of Cain and were cursed. Hmmm.
I love science. Guess what? Joseph Smith died because he was in a gunfight you moron. Not because of his religion. No one is killing Mormons because of their religion.

The only thing Joseph Smith was really inspired to do was commit rape and incest of little girls. I believe Joseph Smith was inspired to do his donkey too.

You must be spending a lot of time reading your recommended list of reading material. You know, the kind that would never show a black mark on your crooked religion.

I say this because, despite what you said, no Christian religion I know believes minority ancestors will go to hell for not being on the same continent as Jesus and if they do they are just as wrong as you are. I do believe Jews are God's chosen but we are all God's children and will be with him someday, unless of course you are a murderer or a blasphemous church leader.
I do believe I believe you risk damnation as a Mormon because you idolize Joseph Smith, the polygamist, cheating, mushroom eating weirdo who liked to boink 13 year old little girls and wanted an excuse for it so he just said God said it was okay. I'd rather look up to a clean, chaste one such as Jesus Christ, who was not married, despite what your disgusting, inbred, perverted church believes.

Layman's ideas of what a cult is:
noting that some aspects of LDS are common to cults: isolation of members from the rest of society (do not associate with the unclean), difficulty in leaving the church (easier now than it used to be, but that's the result of the Hancock lawsuit), claim to be the only true church/means of salvation, tithing requirements, secret ceremonies.

The historical definition of a cult is any group, which claims to be a Christian group yet teaches something that is not primarily a Christian belief.
LDS beliefs:
They believe that God is just an exalted man.
They believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
They believe we can become gods ourselves.
They believe that Mormon women are to be pregnant for eternity populating their own planets.

Absolutely no archeological evidence for the Book of Mormon has been discovered (except for the part that was copied straight from the King James Bible).

Over 4000 changes have been made to the Book of Mormon since it was first published - a far cry from what Smith called "The most correct book on earth."

Christianity. You are not Christians. Most Christians believe in the Trinity. Most Christians, believing in the Bible and its sacred words, believe that Mary was a virgin. Your theory that God had sex with Mary is pretty warped. Your theory that there is an earth mother in heaven and God has sex with her is pretty wack too.

This is why your Church is hated by so many people.

You know why the orphanage wouldn't let you adopt the African American Child? Could it be because your church is considered a cult? Hmmm.
All of this outrage from someone part of an organization of people that convert non-English speaking people to their weird religion and did a Baptism for the dead for Hitler. I know Anne Frank, a true religious Martyr, rolled over in her grave because she'd never forsake her religion for the whacked-out, scandalous, icky Mormon one but Mormons feel they have the power to act in a dead person's behalf. Where in
the Bible does it give you that right?
The only bigots are people like you who don't even know their church's (or in your case, cult) history or theology.

People who believe everything they hear in sacrament, fast and testimony or relief society when people get all weepy and say I know this church is true when in reality most Mormons are so sheltered they've never experienced any sort of life and have nothing to compare their Mormon experience to. I laugh at the people who live on the high they get from reading Joseph Smith's garbled and neurotic writings.

I laugh at those Mormons who believe that their clergy are unpaid, when their presidency makes the big bucks. I laugh at those who believe that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, that there are moon men on mars who dress like Quakers, and that God lives on Kolob. I laugh at those who think that is normal for your church to keep you so busy having kids, doing church work, and proselytizing that you don't have a second to think about the sheer absurdity of the doctrine you have so come to love and depend on.
I have read the bible.

I know Jesus Christ said nothing about the Latter Day saint Church being the only true church. He said nothing that points to your church being anything special, however, I do remember he said to aware of false prophets. Those who claim to know God or get revelations from him. Those who claim to speak for him. That would be you all.

You got problems. I think your magic underwear complete with Masonic symbols by the way, is cutting off the circulation to your brain.
I don't hate you because of your religion, I pity you because of your ignorance of your own religion's history.


Emily

Wichita,
Kansas,
U.S.A.
Racist, brother please!

#42UPDATE Employee

Sat, March 15, 2003

I am Native American down to my toes, my next younger brother is Phillipino, then a pureblooded Mexican sister, and a pure Caucasian brother. My mom also managed to have two children of blood against all odds. We tried to adopt a black baby too, but they wouldn't give him to us because we aren't black... so he stayed in the orphanage. My family is truly racially blind. Race is how you look not who you are. My father is in the high council of our area and has served as a bishop... someday he could be the prophet, my dad is that righteous of a man.

The quotes you have stated are either lies or embellishments. Leaders are always misquoted. The Mormon church has been the most historically persecuted of all churchs. Don't believe me? Read the history, read about the massacres of Illinios, and the martyrdom of our prophet. Read of Haun's Mill... all Mormons who were killed only because of their beliefs.

The "Mormon Bible", that isn't even it's name you ignorant bigot. We are the only church that believes all races will be given to chance to know Christ, both living and dead. All other Christian religions believe minorities ancestors will go to hell because they weren't born on the same continent as Jesus.

I don't care what race you are, I really don't... you are a bigot. Put on your white sheets... get out your burning crosses...you hate us for our religion... you are a bigot.


the Mormons don't exactly run over to pinch her cheeks as they would do their pure white Mormon children

#430

Sun, January 13, 2002

They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:

Their email: [email protected]
Their name: Amarantha

Their relationship to the company: Consumer Suggestion

Rebuttal:
Doesn't support racism?? Have you ever read your Bible? I have and I am not even of your faith! My child is half-native American....the Mormons don't exactly run over to pinch her cheeks as they would do their pure white Mormon children. My husbands cousin and step-family are black and the Mormons talk down to them as if the blacks are poor dumb souls!

I don't see the Mormon Bishop going door to door in the run down houses where families are starving and offer those people food for as long as they need it and help them get on their Mormon welfare like they do their own white Mormon families. I have gone to Mormon churches with my friends.

I am not sitting here speaking without bearing witness to the Mormon church. I listen to Mormons ridicule other faiths. And to the person who said that we have to look at the time in which the Mormons developed, Basically.

Sure...it was a time when Indians and Blacks were placed below the whites. BUT...your Mormon Forefathers BELIEVED this! You follow a group of historical racists and you all have built a religion upon their words. It was built on hate towards anyone who is not white and if you do not believe in THEIR written words then you religion is obsolete. Hundreds of thousands follow a dead faith. You cannot change your Bible or its words.

I should know of the race hate within the pages of your Bible because it was read to me a hundred times by my Mormon friends who believed me wrong for marrying a Non-white!

I have also watched some Mormon cartoons and how they depict the Native Americans. It was horrible and not something I would show any child for fear they would believe in the nonsense that was being shown. Be proud of your faith, but be honost about it all as well. And if the church doesn't support what its followers are doing perhaps they should do something more about it. Or perhaps they don't have as much of a problem with it as people might think.


I have been LDS for 52 years

#440

Thu, December 20, 2001

They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:

Their email: [email protected]
Their name: Harold henderson

Their relationship to the company: Supporter

Rebuttal:
I'll make this short. I have been LDS for 52 years and have been all over the USA and Europe. I have always been active in every location. I have never been taught to hate anyone by the LDS church. Just the opposite. The LDS church does not teach racial hatred.


EDitor's Comment: Although I (and countless others) have been victimized by Mormons, both economically and criminally, in NO WAY do I feel that the Mormon Church advocates such behavior.

#450

Tue, February 27, 2001

EDITORS NOTE:
I appreciate your candor. I can agree with you somewhat. But, then I reread the Rip-off Report above and I ask you, what part of that report above is wrong? I realize the report is a long one and would take quite some time for you to write.

What I have seen over the last year is:

Mormon school principals and teachers give preferential treatment to the Mormon students with no punishment for acts of violence against Hispanics, African Americans and even other white non-Mormons. Both Mormon and NON-Mormon teachers have left the schools in protest because of these actions.

Mormon school Sports Coaches practice discrimination nationwide.
Hate groups are common with many young kids in schools.

Students in schools are not allowed to wear certain types of clothing and colors.
Mormon students can wear that Mormon Ring, the undergarments and always ask, .. What Ward to you belong to?

Mormon run police department practice discrimination. See this article at this web address: http://www.badbusinessbureau.com/view.asp?id=2654

Mormon Politicians and lawyers with power do only for their own kind. Yes, they even discriminate against Mormons. Mormons who are not generation Mormons, the poor Mormons and Jack Mormons. (but not the rich Jack Mormons).

As I've said in other Editorials, I repeat the following:

I feel that for SOME things, Mormons get undue heat because they are frequently misunderstood and all to often, they are victims of discrimination. Overall, they are family and community oriented and are very dedicated to the well being of family and other members of the LDS church.

ON THE OTHER HAND...cliques exist within the Mormon Church, and those Mormons who are a part of these cliques often do great injustices to others, non Mormons. All the writings on this web site are from personal experiences of injustices perpetrated by these cliques that have gone awry.

Although I (and countless others) have been victimized by Mormons, both economically and criminally, in NO WAY do I feel that the Mormon Church advocates such behavior.

I do feel, however, that the Mormon Church needs to make more of a concerted effort to go after, re-teach, or reprimand the church's bishops and stake leaders around the world who impress upon others that they are above everyone else. A concerted effort should be made by the Mormon Church hierarchy to teach that committing crimes, lying or cheating others, or defending fellow Mormons who exhibit those tendencies, is wrong. These behaviors are contrary not only to the morals of society in general, but to the scriptural writings of the church itself, surely a deterrent to everlasting life in heaven in accordance with the tenets of the faith.

In a much publicized 1997 letter to Mormon church members, the First Presidency said: "Members of the church are under special obligation to seek out and then uphold those leaders who are 'wise,' 'good,' and 'honest.'" Advocacy by the Mormon Church for its members to follow this course of conduct is indeed exemplary.

Lastly, I have the highest regard for almost every Mormon I know, personally. It is commonly the ones in political positions and the big shot lawyers and businessmen that give Mormons a bad name. You know who you / they are.

ED Magedson
[email protected]


The court recently ruled

#460

Tue, February 27, 2001

This email is a rebuttal to RipOff #2067.
It was sent by @[email protected] at [email protected]

THE MORMON CHURCH'S RACIST IDEOLOGY *Rebuttal ...No one has a patent on ignorance *Editorial (#2067)

They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:

Their email: [email protected]
Their relationship to the company: Supporter

Rebuttal:
As to the issue of Mormons banding together to deprive others of due process and their rights -- the Church does not condone that behavior as described in the Doctrine and Covenants, one of thier books of canonized scripture:

"We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, and citizens, denied. Doctrine and Covenants 134:9

Where a large if not dominant population of people who share the same beliefs exist, there is a tendency to abuse their civil authority and exercise excess dominion over others.

As case in point in Utah law recently enacted by Utah Supreme Court (all members of the LDS faith)

The court recently ruled that a judge does not have to disclose his/her personal religious relationships/affiliations with any of the parties involved in the litigation over which he/she is presiding. So if a prosecuting attorney and the judge work closely together in the church, pray together, or have any other one-on-one personal church relationship, the judge does not have to disclose that relationship to the defendant nor the defendants attorney and therefore does not have to recuse him/herself from the trial.

Talk about the potential of abuse. One of the most vital aspects of due process -- that of an impartial judge -- has been eliminated in Utah. Why? Because the supreme court ruled to protect one of the most powerful business interests in Utah -- Intermountain Health Care -- Utah's mormon dominated medical monopoly.

Here's the facts:
IHC was being sued by one of its doctors for breach of contract. The doctor had a strong case and he and his attorneys thought they had a slam dunk. To the surprise of all, the judge (Ralph Mabey) ruled against the doctor and ordered the doctor to pay $250,000 for IHC's legal expenses.
The judge also ordered all of the doctor's legal records destroyed. (At that time IHC was under investigation by the justice department for anti-trust violation and the records, if justice knew about them, would be instrumental in their case against IHC). The doctor refused to turn over the records to the judge and notified the justice department who then took
custody of the files. Within a few weeks, sheriff deputies decended upon the doctors home and seized all of his property --even his children's toys and bank accounts -- on the order of the judge.

A few months later, the doctor discovered that the judge had served personally in an LDS church assignment with the chief executive of IHC (the plaintiff in the case) Cecil Samuelson for over 10 years! Samueslon was a Stake President and Mabey was a Bishop under Samuelson.

Mabey never disclosed this relationship to the parties. If he would have, the doctor would have chosen another judge.

In Mabey's surprise ruling against the doctor he said that he was not ruling on the merits of the case, nor the law, but rather on what he felt had happened.

When the doctor discovered the relationship, he appealed the ruling to the Utah Supreme Court in an effort to get a new trial. The courst ruled against the doctor on the following basis:

Because of the large Mormon population in Utah it would be impractical for every judge to disclose his/her prior or existing church relationships to the parties involved in the litigation over which he/she presides.

After the court ruling, it was discovered that the court's chief justice (who wrote the opinion) was best friends with the IHC plaintiff Cecil Samuelson. They served together in the church, attended college together in Indiana, and vacationed together every year. The judge's husband was also on IHC's payroll.

So in an effort to protect their friends, the court threw out hundreds of years of common law --laws that were created by our forefathers to protect against the very thing that happened in Utah.

When this ruling came down, the LDS owned-media (Deseret News,
KSL-TV/radio) refused to cover the ruling. When the doctor called the editor of the newspaper to ask him why, the editor said he was a trouble maker and to leave well enough alone.

The implications: (1) The 500,000 non-Mormon Utah citizens have lost a fundamental right of due process because of cronyism. These people should be up in arms. But no one cares.

(2) In less than one year Utah will have millions of people come for the Olympics. These peple will check their rights to due process at the airport gate and if they do encounter legal problems they face the possibility of a Utah Supreme Court sanctioned kangaroo court.

As a post script, Cecil Samuelson, the IHC executive and defendant, when asked why he had requested the court to seize the doctor's assets, he said it was a warning volley to all whom might want to embarass the sacred institutions in Utah. A few months later, Samuelson was elevated to the LDS Church's leadership hierarchy.

As a twist of irony: Recently the doctor was a key expert witness in a medical malpractice suit against IHC and it was his expert testimony that persuaded a jury to award the injured patient $9 million in actual and punitive damages against IHC. This was the highest jusry award formedical malapractice in the history of Utah. The judge also sanctioned IHC for altering evidence in the case (they witheld a video tape of an ultrasound
that proved their guilt and then, when compeleld by the court to produce it, they edited out the damaging part. Fortunately, the editor left three frames (not visible to the eye) of the offending evidence on the tape and it was discovered by the doctor. What comes around goes around.

Another side light: The doctor, a world-rnown expert in fetal care, was originally hired by IHC to diagnose bad babies before they were born in an effort to fill its infant critcal care ward (the most profitable aprt of the hospital). To induce him to work, they offered him 50% of the revenues. Within a few years, the doctor became the highest paid employee in IHC and as a resultof his intervention fewer babies were admitted to the critical care unit than before he joined IHC. The doctor also reduced the still birth rate by 80%.

IHC was presented with a dilemna -- their highest paid employee was, due to his successful intervention, was reducing the companies profits. So they terminated him without cause in violation of a 10 year contract. A few years after he left, the infant mortality rate not only rose back to the level it was before the doctor came but it increased. The net effect:
30+ babies die unnecessarily every year in Utah for the almighty dollar!!

Even through all of this, I am a supporter of the Church. I separate the mission of the church (to instill the values of love, forgiveness, and charity toward all)from some of the people who mess it up by using the church for their personal gain. I don't thorw out the baby with the bath water. Some of the nicest people I have ever met have been Mormons as well
as some of the vilest --not vile on the surface but within their hearts because of their abuse of religion for personal gain. I believe that these type of people will be judged as harshly by our creator as the Hitler's of the world.


We learn from our mistakes and move on.

#470

Tue, February 27, 2001

This email is a rebuttal to RipOff #2067.
It was sent by James Anderson at [email protected]

THE MORMON CHURCH'S RACIST IDEOLOGY (#2067)

They filed the following rebuttal to the above Rip-Off Report:

Their email: [email protected]
Their name: James Anderson
Their phone number: 801-426-9960
Their relationship to the company: Supporter

Rebuttal:
No one has a patent on ignorance. The comments quoted in this article may no doubt be true but they were made in the context of the times in which the people lived -- a time in American history when racial intolerence was epidemic -- a very part of the American social, cultural, and religious fabric. No institution escaped this ignorance -- it ws embedded in the
American society as a whole. Thankfully we have all learned that such attitudes are ridiculous and our society has for the most part changed. As a Mormon, I am not prejudiced nor do I hold and harbor the beliefs stated here. To me, the mission of the Christian church is to teach love, tolerance, and forgiveness -- and practice the golden rule. You cannot say, just because you cite outdated statements by early LDS leaders, that the LDS Church is bigoted just as you can't say that all Americans are
bigoted because many of our forefathers practiced and condoned slavery.

Should we be anti-American because of our salve past? Of course not!. We learn from our mistakes and move on. Should we be anti-Mormon because of its early racist attitudes. No. They, like all of us, have learned that intolerance is ignorance and a by-product of false traditions. Instead of spending your energy and time in trying to tear down the church, put it to productive use in trying to build a society of tolerance and love.

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