Complaint Review: Primerica - Cleveland Ohio

First off; to the individuals bashing JAY IN LITTLE COMPTON, about having too much time on his hands, he didn't start this blog spot, I did! If you notice, the comments are made by me, Jay in Cleveland and/or Euclid, OH. With that being said, (and I won't spend a lot of time on this), Primerica is a joke; I've already detailed why, so enough said!

We were part of this incredible illusion. Perhaps we could have done very well - except one thing - honest people cannot make a dishonest or deceiptful business work for them. From our year of observation in this company, it became more and more clear that this business works very well for anyone that is either lacking in conscience or just so desparate that they are willing to sacrifice their soul to make a dollar. There's really not much has to be said. If you can support this company in any way then you are severely under a spell. Elisabeth.

We were part of this incredible illusion. Perhaps we could have done very well - except one thing - honest people cannot make a dishonest or deceiptful business work for them. From our year of observation in this company, it became more and more clear that this business works very well for anyone that is either lacking in conscience or just so desparate that they are willing to sacrifice their soul to make a dollar. There's really not much has to be said. If you can support this company in any way then you are severely under a spell. Elisabeth.

We were part of this incredible illusion. Perhaps we could have done very well - except one thing - honest people cannot make a dishonest or deceiptful business work for them. From our year of observation in this company, it became more and more clear that this business works very well for anyone that is either lacking in conscience or just so desparate that they are willing to sacrifice their soul to make a dollar. There's really not much has to be said. If you can support this company in any way then you are severely under a spell. Elisabeth.

like most crimerica "employees" you just happened to stumble upon a website called Ripoff report which details the deceptive business practices of your cherished organization. Me? i have nothing to do but spend my days bashing a great company that wants to help the little people out of debt. somehow you guessed that my law practice and financial services business are just a sideline. my real goal in life is to destroy the perfect reputation of an outstanding company like primerica. you got me, my bad. jay

This is for the almighty and all knowing Jay. Get a life....you have way to much time on your hands... If you are so passionate about the fact that Primerica is such a rip-off then do something about it other than piss and moan and try to make yourself look smart. I know that if I was convicted enough to write so many things about a company completely durg there name through the dirt and was teetering on the borderline of libel, maybe just maybe I would stop talking and start walking. In this life there are "say-er's" and "do-er's", I am a "do-er" which are you? Good luck with your quest of trash talking...I hope you find some peace and fullfilment in life, that way you can get on with it instead of being stuck in a constant rut and bashing other people. I am not saying what primerica does is wrong or right, I am simply telling you to get a life. Oh and by the way I know that you are going to write a comment that has something witty and ridiculous in it about me and that is fine but just so you know, there will probably be no response because unlike you I actually have other things to do with my time like make people feel good about themself. P.S. I think you are the smartest person that has made a comment on this entire page...and I mean that sincerely.

armed with the same ole intellectually dishonest dog dung straight from the crimerica playbook. gotta love these newbies filled with piss and vinegar and dreams of riches drummed into them by their RVP who is stealing their warm market while promising them if they work hard they too could be driving a beat up chevy impala witin 6-9 months. aint life grand?

You say banks don't want you to be debt free.....however I threw away at least 3 different offers fro credit from Citicard and Citifinancial this week. last I heard they were owned by Citigroup, just like primerica is. Please don't give us a lecture about how your corporate entity wants to make middle class america debt free. Its not the truth. McMinniville talks about banks only paying 1-2% on bank accounts but charging a lot more for credit cards. True...its how banks, like Citibank make a profit. What you can do is open some of those 1.99% FOR THE LIFE OF THE BALANCE TRANSFER offers and do it. The Theory of Decreasing Responsibility is just that........a Theory. It assumes life will progress in a straight line with no curves. It assumes at age 54 you won't refinance your house to take advantage of low rates, or buy a second home...or buy a dream home....or have to assume the college education of your grandkids because something happened to their parents. The fact is, even when preparing life on the basis that the Theory of Decreasing Responsibility will actually happen as planned, you should purchaes term insurance with a really good conversion option. For one thing, the good companies with goos conversion options charge less for their term than primerica does....and secondly, you just never know. Lastly McMinniville makes an allusion to the not-so-SMART loan from primerica. INTEREST RATES MATTER MOST McMinniville. All the crap about biweekly payment plans, scheduled versus simple interest, etc..... are just smoke and mirrors. ANY.....ANY.....ANY payment plan primerica offers can be duplicated elsewhere and save the consumer a TON OF MONEY when they are paying 1.5-1.75% less than the predators at primerica charge.

An absurd statement: "Banks are in the debt business. If you pay off your loans they don't make any more money." Wrong, wrong, wrong. They do make money from the interest they charge you. A bald-faced lie, N. A misleading statement: "Their purpose is NOT to get you Debt Free and Financially Independent though." Crimerica's purpose is to become your new creditor (and an extremely expensive one at that that can cost you an additional $100,000 on your mortgage with no offsetting compensating benefit). "What's the purpose of a life insurance agent? Is it to help you become Debt Free and Financially Independent so that one day you are in position to be SELF insured? Nope. They sell you life insurance. Have a nice day." What's the purpose of a Crimerican term insurance agent? It's to sell you a very expensive, piece of garbage term insurance that you wouldn't be able to take care of your loved ones after you retire. As Archie Bunker would say to Crimerica "Whoop-tee-doo!" Guess what N? As a typical shiller for Crimerica in sheep's clothing, you're nothing but a used car salesman working for Crimerica as an agent (and a very inept one at that). To help you out further numbskull, bang this into your brain: Have a nice day.

N, Nobody's bashing some sort of wonderful opportunity here. Rather, we are speaking out against an exploitative enterprise bent on taking kind, trusting people like yourself, filling your head with altruistic dreams, getting a few sales out of your "warm market," and then leaving you poorer than when you came in. Primerica is by no means the first scam MLM company with an NYSE listing and a huge parent company. Ever heard of Amway, Quixtar, and Alticor? Allow me to let you in on a little secret: NYSE listing, and affiliation with a multi-billion dollar corporation, has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether a company respects its labor force, and even less to do with whether individuals within that labor force will ever achieve success (which is all YOU should be worried about). In all reality, NYSE listing says NOTHING about a company's internal ethics at all. How many corporations which were just as you described (hugely wealthy and listed on a secondary market) were shown to be highly dubious over the past five years? How many actions are currently pending, in several different jurisdictions, against Citi as we speak? You also alluded to the whole "every business is a pyramid" line. Kind of odd, as you also state that Primerica is not a pyramid scheme. But I'll look past that and focus on the major flaw with your reasoning. You are correct in that most businesses follow a pyramidal organization model. As you go up in levels of supervision and administration, there are fewer people earning more money. But while Primerica utilizes the pyramid organization structure, it also utilizes the pyramid for its COMMISSION structure. THAT'S the difference between an MLM and any other business. In non MLM, sales based companies, commissions are earned at the bottom level. The remainder of the labor force is paid from the remainder of the net earning. As the net earning is limited, the organization, to be efficient, must limit itself to only as many levels of supervision and adminsitration as are necessary. Thus, most businesses operate with five or fewer levels of administration (international, national, regional, district, local). In the MLM, however, there is the company itself which is paid out of the post-commission earnings. But below that, there are unlimited levels of uplines and downlines who must share in the commission. This paradigm results in a hugely bloated sales force, with the vast majority of agents making very few sales and very little commissions. The operation is hugely inefficient, and this inefficiency must be reflected in the earnings somewhere. Of course, it manifests itself in the paltry (if not non-existent) earnings of the front-line agents. Also, to support the bloated commission structure, the products must be sold with a rather significant premium. MLM products thus tend to be non-competitive and hard to sell to informed consumers. As a result, the primary consumers of MLM products are ALWAYS the agents themselves, because they are the only ones who believe in the value of the product. The supplemental market for MLM products is comprised of the friends and loved ones of the agents. These are people who are more likely to buy out of trust (or pity) than the actual value of the product. Primerica is not a quality opportunity for the recruit. No viable employment opportunity places the entire risk of loss on the employee himself. And yes, no matter what they told you about "owning your own business," you are a mere employee. If you want to bust in to the insurance industry, or the financial plannign industry, or both, there are plenty of opportunities out there. And almost ALL of them carry a higher probablity of success than Primerica.

Thanks for the Inspiration What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right! PRIMERICA... Scam, pyramid scheme? If so, it's the 1st fully licensed, federally audited, with a publically traded and NYSE listed parent company, pyramid scheme in the world. Are there some scams out there and should you be careful? For sure. Is Primerica structured different than your job or your business? Probably. I've been an employee like the most of you and I've been a ?traditional? business owner like many as well. And in either case there's very limited room at the top. Every Department Store, Grocery Store, Post Office, Library, Restaurant, School, Bank and Church have a lot of people on the bottom and very few on top. Lot's of people are barely making it and a few people are MAYBE achieving their dreams. And for one of us to get to the top, it's usually at the expense of someone else. Someone has to die, retire, get fired, or quit for us to have a shot. I imagine you are all on this website offering your feedback and insight because you care. Right? I hope. So how about build people, care about people, and really love people. How about unite and win rather than divide and conquer? We're not talking rainbows and fairy dust. We're talking about uniting for a cause, doing what's right and giving people a shot. That's why I'm in Primerica. And just a note... Primerica is actually a lot more like Real Estate than it is like a typical MLM. We have agents and a broker, a real office, real people, a VERY real service (I am sorry that not everyone is shown that), but the difference is you can earn your brokerage rather than just buying one. And as someone said earlier, college degrees and management experience doesn't put you at the top when you get here. But if you ARE all that, you should be able to get there anyway. The company doesn't look at someone's past (aside from legal issues of course), the company looks at your potential, your heart, your desire, your excitement to do something more with your life. Is there a need for what we do and do we do what's right? I obviously wouldn't be here if I didn't passionately think YES! But I won't spend too much time on this issue because I don't think I need to. Banks are in the debt business. If you pay off your loans they don't make any more money. They are not in favor of this. Who taught you to shop for lower rates? The banks. How come less and less people are paying off their homes and foreclosures are sky rocketing? Hmmm... But they got a low interest rate... Maybe there's more to it than that. The banks have it figured out. I'm not trying to bash on banks. I have checking accounts and banks are good for some things. Their purpose is NOT to get you Debt Free and Financially Independent though. What interest do banks give on a typical savings account? 1%, 2%, 3%? What do these same banks charge as interest on the credit cards they issue? !7%, 18%? Does anyone reading this have a savings account and a credit card? Probably a lot of you. So they use YOUR money to collect at a HIGH interest rate and they pay you the LOW interest rate. The banks thank you. What's the purpose of a life insurance agent? Is it to help you become Debt Free and Financially Independent so that one day you are in position to be SELF insured? Nope. They sell you life insurance. Have a nice day. Investment firms help the rich, the Gov't helps the poor and the middle class is generally left to figure it out on their own. Schools teach the capitals of all fifty states and how long the Nile river is but not so much about how money works. People need help. Everything we teach I have implemented for my own family. And I'm sure you could improve your financial situation and have a bit more peace of mind if you just knew more. The Rule of 72 IS real and the Theory of Decreasing Responsibility is vital you understand. By the way I looked up and found entries on this web site about The SALVATION ARMY, GOODWILL, The PUBLIC LIBRARY, The FIRE DEPARTMENT and The US ARMY just to confirm what I already knew... Some people will always find the bad in everything. It's sad. This country's not perfect, my marriage isn't perfect, I know your job's not perfect and Primerica isn't perfect. But it's a chance! A chance for someone with an average and ordinary background to do something great in their lives. And ?great? probably means something different to you... But does your job give you that chance? How's it going? Just like life, most people won't make it in Primerica. Just like life, 10% of the people will make 90% of the money. People won't tap into their potential, won't put in the hard work, won't be disciplined enough, won't be giving enough and persist long enough to make this work. Just like life. Will that be your life? I know I have a lot to improve on and I know my family's financial security is at stake. I know that average and ordinary isn't what I had always dreamed of. Just give me a chance! WRITE BAD about us or whatever you're going to do, but PLEASE check out the HOW MONEY WORKS section of Primerica.com. Take the time to understand it and it WILL make a difference in your life. And yet the laws of the universe will hold true again as those who need the most help will be the first to turn it down and discourage it. All I can do is all I can do. But I feel better now. And the BEST PART is that while most of you will bash, pick, tear apart, and look for fault as if there was a reward for it, at least 1 person is going to give Primerica another look... or is going to check out the website... or is going to give themselves and their family a chance to do something great... or maybe they'll just cut up their credit card. Maybe one person will begin to wonder if life is really all about being told how many sick days you can have, what time they need to leave their children to go to work, and how much they're worth. That's the best part. And that's why I'm in Primerica!

Hi GB, Editors won't allow others to bash Primerica by promoting its own company. This is why names of alternate companies are not allowed to be given out in these reports. However, what you can do is to do a Google search on "finacial planning forums", "investment planning forums", etc. You can ask your question in those forums. There should be financial experts who will be more than happy to give you good alternate suggestions.

You're exaclty correct Staurt, nobody should take the quoted statistics of Primericans as the truth. But whether or not the 300m figure was accurate was irrelevant to my post. I was showing that the numbers that the Primerican was throwing around as though they were positives were actually quite negative when fully developed. It's the whole "even if we take everything you say as true, you're still wrong" approach. My main point (which always has a tendency to get lost in the details) was that the poster was a victim of the most effective type of deceptive recruiting out there. When the statement "we paid out 300m last year" is made on its own, it can sound pretty impressive, and no doubt would impress many potential recruits. But the aggregate income of all PFS agents is a worthless statistic. What the recruit should concern himself is the average income, preferably shown as a "per hour." What's worse is that many recruits, having learned what the aggregate income may be, convince themselves that they are as informed as they need to be, that they know all they need to know, without ever concerning themselves with the average income. And to be fully informed of the viability of a PFS gig, the recruit should ideally have an average income statistic that excludes people who are not comparable to himself, notably agents who have been in it for a great length of time. So whereas the above poster was satisfied with "aggregate icome", he should have settled for nothing less than "(aggregate income - incomes of extended tenure agents)/(man hours)"

I would doublecheck anything on Ripoff Report especially posts from shillers. Case in point: commissions. I've read a report from a Crimerican claiming Crimerica paid $610 million to agents during 2005 while giving a link. I went to that link which is: http://www.primericabusinessopportunity.com/public/ businessopportunity/primerica_who.html Here's what the bullet in question says: "Paid out $610 million in compensation in 2005" From context it's evident that's what Crimerica paid on claims, not as commission to agents. I'm researching the internet to see what the actual commission paid out to all of the 108,000 agents in the US was. When I get a reliable figure, I'll post it. Best regards,

Tim hits the nail on the head. When you consider how few people at primerica make $50,000 a year or more, and how many have rolled through its recruitment machine over the last 29 years then you get a persepective on the chances of making even a decent living. If primerica has had 100,000 people a year processed through its machine, that means 2,900,000 people have signed up over the years and yet only 5,000 or so are making $50,000. That comes out to about 1/6th of 1%. Keep in mind $50,000 ain't no great shakes either. The median income in 43 of 50 states is over $50,000. The median income of self employed people nationwide is $143,000. The problem with the primerica flopportunity is that the products are overpriced. You are limited to selling to people who are willing to take what primerica marketing says at face value...just like the rep did. Primerica also doesn't give the rep the training or the flexibility to work with a client with an unusual set of circumstances. I don't mean far out stuff either. I'm talking about everyday stuff like occasional smokers, type 2 diabetics or heart bypass patients.

Tim, when it comes to what the agents are making at Crimerica, I would doublecheck whatever is posted here at Ripoff Report. There was a poster who recently said that Crimerica paid out $610 million in 2005 for all the agents combined for their commission and listed a website which I visited. That website is http://www.primericabusinessopportunity.com/ public/businessopportunity/primerica_who.html At that website it states: "Paid out $610 million in compensation in 2005." From context I'm sure that's not income, but payment on claims filed. I would like to see something from Crimerica that states clearly what the annual income for all agents in the US is (btw the website does show that Crimerica has more than 100,000 licensed agents). I'll be researching and I'll post my findings later. Best regards,

This site contains a lot of Primerica bashing posts and claims that there are many companies that are far better in price, product and service, but where are these companies' names? It seems that people are bashing Primerica, but not offering alternatives. I for one, want to know that I am offering my clients the best that there is. However, finding the best that there is, is proving to be difficult. It seems that the Primerica bashers are quick to do the bashing, but not quick to back it up with the names of alternative companies that are supposedly better than Primerica. If there are better companies, I want to know who they are and why they are better? I am interested, because I am sincerely looking for the 'best' out there. I am aware that Primerica has its strengths and also some limitations, which do concern me. So please help me (and others like me) to find a better alternative. When I am sitting in front of a client, I want to know that I am genuinely helping this person. This is very important to me, and I hope to others as well. So if there is a better company, please let us know which company and why. Does one exists at all? Thanks for the help. GB Y/S, California

This site contains a lot of Primerica bashing posts and claims that there are many companies that are far better in price, product and service, but where are these companies' names? It seems that people are bashing Primerica, but not offering alternatives. I for one, want to know that I am offering my clients the best that there is. However, finding the best that there is, is proving to be difficult. It seems that the Primerica bashers are quick to do the bashing, but not quick to back it up with the names of alternative companies that are supposedly better than Primerica. If there are better companies, I want to know who they are and why they are better? I am interested, because I am sincerely looking for the 'best' out there. I am aware that Primerica has its strengths and also some limitations, which do concern me. So please help me (and others like me) to find a better alternative. When I am sitting in front of a client, I want to know that I am genuinely helping this person. This is very important to me, and I hope to others as well. So if there is a better company, please let us know which company and why. Does one exists at all? Thanks for the help. GB Y/S, California

This site contains a lot of Primerica bashing posts and claims that there are many companies that are far better in price, product and service, but where are these companies' names? It seems that people are bashing Primerica, but not offering alternatives. I for one, want to know that I am offering my clients the best that there is. However, finding the best that there is, is proving to be difficult. It seems that the Primerica bashers are quick to do the bashing, but not quick to back it up with the names of alternative companies that are supposedly better than Primerica. If there are better companies, I want to know who they are and why they are better? I am interested, because I am sincerely looking for the 'best' out there. I am aware that Primerica has its strengths and also some limitations, which do concern me. So please help me (and others like me) to find a better alternative. When I am sitting in front of a client, I want to know that I am genuinely helping this person. This is very important to me, and I hope to others as well. So if there is a better company, please let us know which company and why. Does one exists at all? Thanks for the help. GB Y/S, California

This site contains a lot of Primerica bashing posts and claims that there are many companies that are far better in price, product and service, but where are these companies' names? It seems that people are bashing Primerica, but not offering alternatives. I for one, want to know that I am offering my clients the best that there is. However, finding the best that there is, is proving to be difficult. It seems that the Primerica bashers are quick to do the bashing, but not quick to back it up with the names of alternative companies that are supposedly better than Primerica. If there are better companies, I want to know who they are and why they are better? I am interested, because I am sincerely looking for the 'best' out there. I am aware that Primerica has its strengths and also some limitations, which do concern me. So please help me (and others like me) to find a better alternative. When I am sitting in front of a client, I want to know that I am genuinely helping this person. This is very important to me, and I hope to others as well. So if there is a better company, please let us know which company and why. Does one exists at all? Thanks for the help. GB Y/S, California

Standard & Poor put Primerica's premium growth at an anemic 2.5% in 2005. That makes all those rosy predictions of future growth look suspect. Does primerica have a sustained competetive advantage? Lets see; Our primerica writer says they don't charge for their Financial needs Analysis (FNA). One reason for that is because their reps aren't licensed to charge for it. Another reason is that no one at that level charges for it. NY Life, Met, Pru, etc all have their own version of the FNA and will turn cartwheels for the opportunity to do it free for a prospective client. If a consumer doesn't want to fool with a salesman they can go on the net and find it and run it on themselves. Our primerica writer gives another reason for their alleged advantage is that they sell Buy Term Invest the Difference 100% of the time. Thats a marketing strategy, not an advantage. The fact is that even though term insurance is right for 90% of the situations there are certain situations in which only permanent insurance solves the client's problem. That means primerica can't compete in those situations. Regarding term insurance primerica's premiums are bloated to support the multilevel commission structure. Stuart can guide you directly to the URL in which primerica says exactly this. Finally our primerica writer says they have an advantage because they have the nations largest sales force. If thats such a great advantage why was premium growth only 2.5% last year? The fact is many of those counted in that sales force are inactive and simply waiting for their life license to expire, or are extremely part-time and only occassionally do anything. A smaller better trained and professional sales force has much to be said for it.

CTU, you certainly seem like a nice guy, so I hope that we can all take it easy on you. But you are obviously a victim of the deceptive practice of "ignored variables" in recruitment. Consider the following: You assert that Primerica paid out $300 million to agents last year. Let's roll with that figure, taking all the evidence and inferences in the light most favorable to YOUR position, and see where it takes us: Primerica has an army of somehere between 100,000 and 150,000 agents. We'll take the low number and divide it into the $300M figure. This gives us an average annual earning of $3000 per agent. Now, if we surmise that 10% of agents are earning at least a minimum wage income from Primerica, the remainder are averaging a little over $2000. If so much as 10% of those people (1% of the total) are earning at least 50k, and 10 percent of those are earning 100k (.1% of the total), the average for the remainder goes down to $1555. Now, even if that average, bottom 90% agent only works an average of 10 hours per week in the year, he is making roughly $3 per hour, and could earn more than twice that flipping burgers at McDonald's. But let's go with the real numbers a bit: we know that at least 5% of the sales force is making at least 50k per year, for a minimum aggregate income of 250m. That leaves 50m for the other 90%, which averages out to a measly $555 per year. Subtract the start up fees from that, and your left with about $350. Any more than 10 hours per week for six weeks, and the average agent in the bottom 95% is earning below minimum wage. You see, when the payout across the entire population of agents only averages 3k per year, it is a mathematical fallacy to simaltaneously contend that many people DO make great incomes, and that any given individual is likely to do so. The two propositions simply cannot co-exist. So one or the other, or both, must be false to some degree. The reality, most likely, is that there are very few people who make an appreciable income (and Primerica's own stats show that this is true, with only 6% of agents earning more than $50,000 per year) AND it it is highly unlikely that any given new recruit will make an appreciable income. Also, consider that the 6% earning over 50k is largely comprised of people who have been in the game for YEARS. If we eliminate people who have been with the company for more than 10 years, the average would go down SUBSTANTIALLY for the people who have not been around for that long. Any way you slice it, this is simply an awful "opportunity."

CTU, Nice of you to drop by and give us your feedbacks. I would like to point out that one of your sentence can be very misleading. You said "Primerica is currently focus on paying out $1 billion to the sales force by 2010". This prediction can be way off, especially when you look at Primerica's track record of setting goals. For example, in Primerica's website http://ww4.primerica.com/public/what/opp/track_record.html In 2001, it mentioned that its goal is to have 15,000 people earning between 50K to 99.999K, and 6000 people making 6 figure salary by 2004. However, according to your colleague Gary's report in http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff191342.htm Primerica only had 4738 people making between 50K to 99.999 K, and 2058 people making 6 figured salary in 2005. Based on this, is there any reason why we should believe that when Primerica says it is focusing to pay out $1 billion by 2010, it will indeed come close to this figure? If can indeed reach its goal by year 2010, good for them. But until then, let's just focus on the current stats and not let unrealstic predicitions cause any misrepresentations.

Q1: Salary? No salary, but earned commissions. I made $380 on just 2 hours of work a month after I got my life licensed. Total income earned from PFS for 2005: $3,210.85 on a part-time basis. I'm only a senior rep in the company. Q2: I'm not financially independent. But on my way to get there. I have elimated all my debt and kept close eye on my spending. Now, I need a business to run by itself. That's my working project. Q3: I don't have any recruits. I did have some and my way of helping them was teaching them everything I know, cheerlead them, and support them and answer all their questions. I setup a wealth builder plan for them. If they understood the power of compound interest and Rule of 72, I ask them, how much are you willing to invest for your future? Majority of Americans are not saving enough or not putting anything away toward retirement. Q4: Sustained competitive advantage? I never heard of that before. I guess they were talking about how PFS is different from other financial service companies? For one, PFS don't charge clients any money to provide a financial game plan to get them out of debt and help them reach their financial goals in life. Second, PFS is the only company that sells Term insurance AND invest the difference 100% of the time. Third, we have the largest marketing force in North America. Q5: Everybody can do what I do, either experienced or not. Its matter of how much you can relate to the client's situation that would matter the most. PFS agents don't need to fully understand how products works, they just need to understand what it does and how it can help the client. If client has technical questions, they can call the home office who can handle all their questions. How does Primerica reps outperform other companies? First, to make the top wealthy 5% of the country, you need to work hard and stay focus. Agents in PFS who makes 6 to 7 figures worked very hard at the beginning and it took them awhile to get there. Work requires getting on the phone and calling people. It requires training and developing people to become RVPs. Everytime someone in your baseshop makes money, you make money too. People who makes over 6 figure income has lots of people working for them. Take a look at Bill Gates. When he created the first personal computer, not many people were interested and thought he was nuts. Today, he's worth over billions of dollars and that took time to get there. The promotion process: (I'm going to just use the life insurance commission chart to make it simple.) Step 1: Submit your IBA with $199, attend PSFU, pass state life exam, you become a Representative making 25% commission. Step 2: You recruit 2 people and pass state life exam, you get promoted to Senior Rep who makes 35% commission. If you have a Representative and you are not there to do the sale, Rep gets paid 25% and you get paid 10% override. Step 3: You promote a Senior Rep on your team, you qualify to become District Leader who makes 50%. If you have a Rep who does all the work, rep gets paid 25%, you get paid 25%. If you have a senior rep who does all the work, he gets paid 35% and you get paid 15%. Step 4: You promote 1 district leader, you qualify to become division leader making 60%. Step 5: You promote 3 district leaders, you qualify to become Regional Leader, making 70%. Step 6: You promote 6 district leaders, you qualify to become Regional Vice President making 95% commissions plus 30% bonuses. Step 7: You promote RVPs directed to you, you get paid 10% override on that entire RVP baseshop! The commission payout at Primerica is amazing and that's how people make 6 to 7 figures. Primerica is currently focus on paying out $1 billion to the sales force by 2010. In 2005, they paid over $300 million!

Today just about did it. I called another office to see if I could participate in their training class this week. I went to it before and it was awesome, so I figured they would not mind if I came back for a visit. Within 20 minutes, my RVP's wife called me to ask why I would want to go to the other office? I said their training was awesome and I just wanted to go back and get more of it. I was told that they frown on that, so she was called by the other office who told on me for asking. Now they want me to set down with my RVP and tell him what it is I am lacking in their office. I have a list. By the way, I have an interview w/ another Financial Service Co. next week! TO BE CONTINUED

Somewhere in Oklahoma Maybe thats the deal in Oklahoma, but it isn't here. I can't speak for Oklahoma as I certainly don't know the real estate laws in every state. Here, all commissions go through a broker and there aren't any agent over agent overrides. As far the cost to get a license in life insurance goes.....I've never understood either the whines or the boasts about $199. If you're looking to get into a business and you feel $199 is a major obstacle you shouldn't get into that business. I have no sympathy for the ones who come on this board to complain about the $199 unless some RVP is trying to stiff them out of their promised refund if they change their mind. I also have no patience if you think having some company reimburse you $199 once you get your license is a big deal. If you think thats a big deal you have no business advising people about finances. I really don't understand how in the modern financial services world anyone would want to limit themselves to selling for only one company. There is no company on earth that has strong products in every product line. Primerica however does compete for having the worst products in each product line it participates in. I'll repeat...the greatest opportunity in real estate is to find the best deals and move on them yourself. I personally hated selling real estate. I never had the pattience to put up with someone who wouldn't buy a perfect house because the door knobs weren't fashionable. I did, however, make excellent money finding distressed properties, buying them, and reselling them. I still do it when the right situation arises. You can make money a lot quicker selling a foreclosed on walnut orchard for $750,000 that you bought for $420,000 from the Federal Land Bank than you can competing for the 25-35% agent's share of a $15,000 commission on a house. Of course none of this is really germaine to the fact that primerica sells overpriced term insurance to the consumer while simultaneously paying incredibly low commissions to the poor agent whom it is exploiting....and that loans they peddle are unspeakably expensive and bad for any, any, ANY consumer who gets suckered into one. Its not relevant to the fact that after 29 years of churning almost 100,000 agents a year through its human shredder primerica still only has 5,000 agents making above the average household income for the United States. I'd call more of a Flopportunity than an opportunity.

Leroy, my man, you are so very wrong about other sales associate making money on other sales associate....MOST of offices now allow you to make a percentage off of every person you recruit!!! so now it is not only the broker that is making the money from that recruit and my personal opinion is that it is great for real estate companies to finally wake up and see that rewarding their associates for finding someone for their office to help the broker make money is an awesome incentive to grow a large office and to help people that need to make extra money. As for your assessement on the money you make... most people do not get into real estate to buy and sell real estate for themselves, most people (ask any realtor) get in the business because they love the opportunity to make more money and most get a rush when they are able to either sell their clients homes or help their client find their dream home. And as I state earlier $20,000 is a lot of money just to have some larger company let you use their name...because I promise you that in your first year you will not net over $20K with all your other start up costs. One last point Primerica is offering people the same opportunity that real estate offers to people with out the large start up costs associated wit getting a license. Oh you didn't even enlighten me on your opinion about that.

Leroy, my man, you are so very wrong about other sales associate making money on other sales associate....MOST of offices now allow you to make a percentage off of every person you recruit!!! so now it is not only the broker that is making the money from that recruit and my personal opinion is that it is great for real estate companies to finally wake up and see that rewarding their associates for finding someone for their office to help the broker make money is an awesome incentive to grow a large office and to help people that need to make extra money. As for your assessement on the money you make... most people do not get into real estate to buy and sell real estate for themselves, most people (ask any realtor) get in the business because they love the opportunity to make more money and most get a rush when they are able to either sell their clients homes or help their client find their dream home. And as I state earlier $20,000 is a lot of money just to have some larger company let you use their name...because I promise you that in your first year you will not net over $20K with all your other start up costs. One last point Primerica is offering people the same opportunity that real estate offers to people with out the large start up costs associated wit getting a license. Oh you didn't even enlighten me on your opinion about that.

Leroy, my man, you are so very wrong about other sales associate making money on other sales associate....MOST of offices now allow you to make a percentage off of every person you recruit!!! so now it is not only the broker that is making the money from that recruit and my personal opinion is that it is great for real estate companies to finally wake up and see that rewarding their associates for finding someone for their office to help the broker make money is an awesome incentive to grow a large office and to help people that need to make extra money. As for your assessement on the money you make... most people do not get into real estate to buy and sell real estate for themselves, most people (ask any realtor) get in the business because they love the opportunity to make more money and most get a rush when they are able to either sell their clients homes or help their client find their dream home. And as I state earlier $20,000 is a lot of money just to have some larger company let you use their name...because I promise you that in your first year you will not net over $20K with all your other start up costs. One last point Primerica is offering people the same opportunity that real estate offers to people with out the large start up costs associated wit getting a license. Oh you didn't even enlighten me on your opinion about that.

Leroy, my man, you are so very wrong about other sales associate making money on other sales associate....MOST of offices now allow you to make a percentage off of every person you recruit!!! so now it is not only the broker that is making the money from that recruit and my personal opinion is that it is great for real estate companies to finally wake up and see that rewarding their associates for finding someone for their office to help the broker make money is an awesome incentive to grow a large office and to help people that need to make extra money. As for your assessement on the money you make... most people do not get into real estate to buy and sell real estate for themselves, most people (ask any realtor) get in the business because they love the opportunity to make more money and most get a rush when they are able to either sell their clients homes or help their client find their dream home. And as I state earlier $20,000 is a lot of money just to have some larger company let you use their name...because I promise you that in your first year you will not net over $20K with all your other start up costs. One last point Primerica is offering people the same opportunity that real estate offers to people with out the large start up costs associated wit getting a license. Oh you didn't even enlighten me on your opinion about that.

Nope. They are totem poles, not pyramids. When Gertrude, a cashier at Wal Mart, get her sister Margaret on as a cashier at Wal Mart, Gertrude gets no portion iof the sales generated by Margaret. Real estate offices are not pyramids either. There is a broker who gets a cut of what each salesperson sells, however, no sales person is entitled to a cut of another salesperson's just because they brought them to the company. By the way, one of the HUGE advantages to having a real estate license is that you become exposed to great deals as they come on the market so you can buy them for yourself. Even a $20,000 franchise fee is chickenfeed compared to what you can make on one right deal. You said it takes the "RIGHT PERSON" to make it an MLM. I agree. It takes someone who is willing to swallow the mothership's line about how thier products are superior as opposed to just overpriced. Any MLM I've been exposed to always featured goods or services that could be bought for less through traditional means. The RIGHT PERSON has to be able to move directly from gullibility into cynicism to continue to sell the overpriced MLM stuff because over the course of time they cannot help but to find out how overpriced their product actually is. If you're an AMWAY (Quixar) person and you are selling the folks laundry soap that is $2 a box higher and no better than Cheer, its only $2. When you repeat lies to people like "the interest rate on your home loan doesn't matter", then you are talking about screwing that person out of $75,000-$100,000 over the 23-24 years of the loan. That matters and it matters a LOT!!! When Joe Client says he can't possibly spend more than $50 a month on term life insurance for him and his wife and you sell them $200,000 primerica policy when he needs and can get a $350,000 for the same $50 from someone else, you are dangerously underinsuring them. If one of them dies you have robbed that family of $150,000. The RIGHT person can do the things above, still sleep at night and say "what a country". The person who is deemed as the wrong type to be successful in an MLM (primerica specifically) is the wrong type because they have a conscience.

They said your license would be revoked if you quit them? Lets get license and appointment straight. The license allows you to operate in the State of Texas. The appointment allows you to sell primerica's lousy products. Since I don't live in Texas I cannot tell you what the laws are there, but in each state I'm licensed in no insurance company can revoke your license. They can only revoke the appointment to sell their products. If they told you they would revoke your license the odds are 99-1 they flat out lied to you. Don't take my word for it, and don't take your RVP's word for it. Call the licensing department at the State of Texas and ask them point blank. They will tell you he truth. Then go to a REAL financial services company. With your degree I'm sure they would put you on a substantial training allowance while you learned to become a real professional. Good Luck.

I can understand why everyone has a problem with what Primerica does, because it is not for everyone. However, Whowever you work for (unless you are the sole owner of your company) who are working for and making someone else money! Do you not think your "boss" makes money from you. EVERY Company in America is based upon this foundation. Without you your boss would not have a job with your company. And if you are the company owner then you have (most of the time) an enormous amount of money going into maintaining your company and even if work by yourself you still have expenses. Let's take being a realtor for example. Let's say you never want to become a broker and have your own office! Does anyone really know what it takes to make it in a market that has over one million associates in just the US. Before you ever make one sale and to put in to place to "make it" it takes over $1,000 (that's being very conservative) and just to get the clock hours that is required to be licensed is another $300 or more. Then there is the license fee, (do you know what that is) $75.00 at least depending on what state your in. Then of course you must pay your membership dues and your costs for a website because let's face in this technical savvy world we live in if you don't have it then you aren't going to make it, then you have advertising the property you just put on the market, let's face it you don't advertise you don't sell, you don't sell you don't make money. Then you pray that once you have a contract, you can actually get it to the closing table. Let's face it people are getting harder and harder to finance because they do not manage their money correctly and are spending more than they make. Not to mention all the BS that mortgage broker's require you to go through just to get a loan. Some of the things they ask for is just stupid!! But enough about associates. Let's say now that you want to now become a broker and have your own office. Let's face it in this day and age you can't be a "Mom and Pop" Anything and make it in this world. So you want to get a large company name to back you, guess what you pay a large upfront fee. Let's say $20,000 (who has that money) just to have the name on your office, then you pay them a royalty fee off everything you sell just because you used their name to sell it! Sounds like a fair trade, but guess what in order to make any money (in the long run) guess what you have to do recruit some associates to work for who? YOU I guess that makes real estate a multi-level marketing scheme as well! Because they work off referrals either from previous clients or from realtors in other areas moving clients into your area or from good ole' door knocking and asking for business and let's not forget about the hours you spend to pass out business cards, just listed flyers, mailing out post cards and so on and so on. But let's take another profession. Let's say you want to be a lawn care service provider..ummmm they make great money in the summer!!! In fact I personally know someone that makes over $100k a year working (just him and one other guy). But in order to get started he had to spend over $50K to get started for just the bare essentials, nice return because in his 3rd year he is essentially making money! oh but wait to make that money, he never spends time with his family during the summer months, because he is working from sun up to sun down just so he can save enough to make it through the winter months. Please sign me up!! Let's see there is also working for corporate America....ummmm I wonder how often someone in true corporate America that worked as hard as some Primerica Reps made over $100K, let's see unless that spent money on college, that sounds like a good plan let's take out loans so that I can have a GREAT career and have a boss and pay back the student loans that bought me a piece of paper for some corporate jerk to make money from my spending money for a college education. Look, I don't have a college education, I did graduate high school (wasn't a large one) I don't care that my grammar on this post may or may not be correct, I could care less if the figures that I used were exact or not. All I care to point out is that: for some people MLM could be an opportunity of a life time and that they shouldn't be discourage because a few people have nothing but bad things to say about a all MLM companies. The simple truth is that for the RIGHT people MLM can and will make them richer than they currently are. If the are self-motivated, risk takers and plug in to what ever system is out there. From what I have seen Primerica is only making that dream come true and they truly are helping some people with their financial situation!! I give the KUDOS for a job well done in what they are trying to accomplish in their mission. I am sorry that some people find it their life mission to destroy dreams!

Unfortunately, I have to find the new job first or I will be in danger of loosing my license after a certain period of time, and I have worked too hard to loose that now. They definately use that to try and trap people. They say, when you leave your license will be revoked. One of their big arguments is that people who have a J-O-B are not in control of their lives. They are trying to say, that we let our job dictate where we can live, when we can go on vacation and how much we can make. Since I have been in this biz, they have pretty much controlled all of that and more. The other day, I was finally able to get some business going from the pipeline that has been 3 months in the making. My upline said that is awesome... "This is all I need to set the stage to make RVP" ( He's talking about himself ) He never said this is awesome, now you will be looking at your next promotion. More and more I see that he doesn't care. Some of my past appts. that seemed like sure things ended up falling through. It was during my training and field trainer was supposed to get referrels, but they didn't. So, I basically ended up back where I started from, because referrels are the lifeline of this biz. When you stop getting them, everything fizzles out. I can't help but wonder, would they intentionally hold you back? I know one thing... If you catch up to and pass up your upline, they don't make money off of you any more. In the beginning, I was kicking but with appts. All of the sudden, stuff started going wrong. It's like stop signs started comming up at every corner. All of it told me that something wasn't right about the whole deal. Even my husband started having some vibes. Are they trying to hold me back until he moves into RVP? It is actually harder for him to promote than for me to promote as I can do it w/ less premium and less recruits. Do you see what I am saying? I will continue to write every few days to kind of give people an idea of activity. TO BE CONTINUED

The test varies from state to state in difficulty. I've always said I could train a chimpanzee to pass the California test. I can't tell you where to go from here however I will offer some free advice. DUMP PRIMERICA. Since you have a degree go to a REAL financial services company and ask to see the office manager. Many of the other companies actually pay people to be PROPERLY trained. My secretary left my employemnet and went to work for New York Life. She was paid $2700 per month plus benefits during her training period. I've never said that no one can make money at primerica. A few do. Primerica really doesn't care. It is set up as a giant lead producing machine. The recruits are simply the fuel that makes that machine run. Here is how it goes 99% of the time. Joe Average gets recruited..gets fired up...takes an RVP to see his warm market. The RVP makes a few sales. Joe Average gets disenchanted and drops off the books. Does primerica care? Hell no! Why should they. What do they have invested in Joe Average? Nothing. If the company generated 2 sales on Joe Average's warm market they are happy. On the other hand New York Life will have $30,000+ invested in my former secretary. They will work their buns off to make her successful. Primerica is a danger to the health of the lower/middle class because they send out half trained goons with cookie cutter approaches to sell greatly overpriced products to people who don't want to do a little research or who don't want to offend Cousin Larry and say no. Its as simple as that.

Give me a break Robbie, there is no way you made 5000K commissions in 1 month. It takes longer than that to get you life license. Even if you took the test on Day 1, it takes 3 weeks or longer to get your license. If you made money before you got a license, than you have been illegally soliciting insurance. Oops! As for one who says Primerica is Rediculas... The life license exam has 150 questions not 80, like you have stated and takes 3 hours. I don't know what test you were taking, but mine was not easy. And I have not yet talked to anyone who said it was easy either. Now, the loan officer exam has 75 questions and is fairly easy. Get your facts strait. TO BE CONTINUED!!!

I started with Primerica back in February of 2006. I consider myself to be an intellegent person who has an open mind and willing to take a risk, within reason. I have a degree in nutrition and have worked in management roles for the past few years. I started seeking employment in different areas, ie.. sales when it started to become clear that jobs in nutrition were getting harder and harder to come by. I paid alot for maintaining my licenses and CE credits in the nutrition field, so paying to get licensed in another field didn't bother me. Any time you get licensed you must pay for the upkeep of that license. I also have some medical problems so I had just turned in my resignation as warehouse manager of a marketing company, prior to getting the first call from Primerica. I was initially excited about getting on board, as I set my goals to hit it full-time. Fortunately, my husband has been extremely supportive, both emotionally and financially, but it is beginning to wear thin. Here is the run down on what I have put in so far and what I have received in return. Iam really trying to show the true plus and minus and not bore you all, so please bear with me. -199.00 IBA -77.00 Life license/finger printing fee -10.00 Long Term Care appointment -60.00 Pre Paid Legal appointment -60.00 Loan officer class & meterials -59.00 Loan officer Exam & finger printing fee -177.00 Palm Pilot -73.00 Call Atlanta subscription & software -36.00 Business Cards -30.00 Misc. Printed material from on line store -200.00 Travel abroad (does not include locally) = 783.99 Grand Total expense + 90.00 comission + 77.00 refund for Life license fee & fingerprint = 167.00 Grand total earned Bottom line: Expense is $616.99 to date This does not include local travel expense approx. 300.00 to date This does not include 214.00 that I still need to pay for Loan officer licensing fee. This does not include approx. cost of Securities class, materials,licensing and finger printing which will cost approx. 1000.00 for everything. that is, If I pass the test the first time. I might add, that not everyone pays for all this in a short period of time as I have, but will eventually have to at some point. The real money ouside of recruiting and moving up to the next level, is in how many licenses you have. The more you have the more you will make. Also the real money is in the Securities License which provides a bigger residual income. Now here's the deal: What am I going to do at this point??? Well as you can see, I have quite a bit of money tied up in this venture. I now feel obligated to follow through with what I have started. We have been scaping the bottom of the barrel to pay all of this including selling an auto. One of the things Primerica says is that if you continue with your current job or situation, you might end up dead broke. Well, I am dead broke and the only thing I can do about it for the time being is look for a second job, so that I can keep paying for all these expenses. Once you have put all this money into this, you kind of feel stuck. I burned up my warm market along time ago and therefor, burned up my referrels along time ago too. Do you think that my upline would work with me to get me going again? That is a big fat No. Remember... He didn't mind helping me burn up the warm market and referrels. Also, of the 5 people I have brought in to recruit, 0 have been recruited. I see alot of people that are in this for only themselves, they told me they would help me to be successful, but I have been hindered not helped. And when you try to say something all the leaders say, quit blaming others for your lack of success. And if you are discouraged, there is no one to talk to about it. Like most jobs... and I did say j-o-b, you have to suck it up and either keep going or drop out. I am getting a good education though, and I like to learn new things so for the time being, I will keep my chin up and work as hard as I can to move foreward. I have been successful in the past and I will continue to be successful in the future, with or without Primerica. TO BE CONTINUED!

I know at one time primerica would make you an RVP with 6 people under you When did it change. How many does it take now? 7, 8, 9, 10? The Fresno Bee ran an article in the paper just three years ago about a part-time professor at the community college becoming an RVP. I guess it was newsworthy because she came here from Viet Nam. I tried to look up her name on the NASD website. She wasn't registered. Do you need to get a CLU, or a CFP to become a Regional Vice President? When did RVPs have to get a Registered principals license? At one point an RVP didn't need anything other than an insurance license. You claim to have been with primerica for 20 years so you should know this stuff. I know it was that way at one point for sure. You tell me when it changed. BTW, I've heard the chant about a NASDAQ auditor before, from another primerican on another board. It was three years ago too. Hmmmm..makes me wonder if one auditor said it about one office so in typical misleading primerica fashion it became part of the primerica mantra. All I know is the primerica office in a town about 90 minutes drive north of us got shut down by the NASD. Still, all that really matters is; a.) primerica sells overpriced term insurance b.) primerica peddles really really REALLY overpriced loans. c.) primerica exploits its salesforce

Multi-level-marketing, although creepy, works. It is not illegal, and is not far away from your manager or director receiving a bonus based upon their unit's productivity. Sad, creepy, but true. Nuff said about that. There is a reason that Primerica doesn't recruit existing financial professionals. THEY CAN'T WITHSTAND THE SCRUTINY. The reason I would never use Primerica is because, as a financial planner and investment advisor, I do not beleive in the quality of their advice... The same solution for every client! ONE EXAMPLE -- TERM PAYS 1-3% The mantra at Primerica is "buy term and invest the difference". They want to replace your permanent life insurance policies with cheap term. Fact is, depending on whose stats you beleive, 1-3% of term policies ever pay a death benefit. PERMANENT POLICIES PAY 98%... the 2% being attributable to people surrendering their policies for the cash. If people didn't surrender their policies, 100% would pay out. In addition, cash value policies make excellent vehicles to create tax free income streams and pass wealth to your heirs... TAX FREE! DON'T BELEIVE ME? Ask Bill Gates and Warren Buffet if they own permanent policies. YOUR SERVICES ARE FREE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT LICENCED TO CHARGE A FEE AND YOU WOULD LOSE THE LIMITTED LICENSE THAT YOU HAVE IF YOU DID! YOU DO NOT WANT AN INVESTMENT ADVISOR LICENSE BECAUSE IT WOULD MAKE YOU A FIDUCIARY AND FORCE YOU TO PROVE THAT THE ADVICE YOU GIVE IS FOR THE BENEFIT OF YOUR CLIENT. I CHECKED-OUT A PRIMERICA OFFICE, WENT TO THEIR MEETING/SEMINAR/INTERVIEW/CATTLE CALL AND FOUND OUT THAT ONLY ONE PERSON IN THE ENTIRE OFFICE EVEN HAD A SECURITIES LICENSE OF ANY KIND. PRIMERICA IS IS PART OF CITIGROUP, "THE LARGEST FINANCIAL INSTITUTION" AS THEY SAY. SEE WHAT THE'VE BEEN UP TO WITH THIS LINK... .. AND THIS LINK ... Onlookers, run far and fast from anything CITI! PRIMERICA REPS, READ THESE BOOKS: CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

PS: That should have been the NASD auditor not NASDAQ on the office audits that get conducted. I should proofread better than I do...

Shows how much you know about something you've never been involved with. The Regional Vice President title (RVP) takes more than just recruiting 6 people, but since you're such an expert ... the all knowing ... all seeing ... you would not really take the time to find out, now would you? There are production requirements, recruiting requirements & yes .... additional Registered Principal's license (series 26) required. It takes far more than 6-people (recruits) to get to RVP. Again, we have to go through the same licensing requirements and continueing education as you all do. Maybe you were born as an insurance salesman & came into the business predisposed as an industry guru. We have the best compliance record in the industry & that comes directly from the NASDAQ auditor's lips. Anyway, Leroy, I have waisted far too much time on this so will stop ... just wanted to set you straight on that point.

Regional Vice President is a title primerica bestows on people with about the same discernment you take in doling out candy to kids on halloween. Anyone who goes through their training and manages to recruit a certain amount of people, (it was 6 the last I heard) becomes one. The "region" the RVP presides over can be as small as his Thanksgiving day table. There are, to the best of my knowledge, no extra educational requirements or licenses needed to become one.

Regional Vice President is a title primerica bestows on people with about the same discernment you take in doling out candy to kids on halloween. Anyone who goes through their training and manages to recruit a certain amount of people, (it was 6 the last I heard) becomes one. The "region" the RVP presides over can be as small as his Thanksgiving day table. There are, to the best of my knowledge, no extra educational requirements or licenses needed to become one.

Regional Vice President is a title primerica bestows on people with about the same discernment you take in doling out candy to kids on halloween. Anyone who goes through their training and manages to recruit a certain amount of people, (it was 6 the last I heard) becomes one. The "region" the RVP presides over can be as small as his Thanksgiving day table. There are, to the best of my knowledge, no extra educational requirements or licenses needed to become one.

Regional Vice President is a title primerica bestows on people with about the same discernment you take in doling out candy to kids on halloween. Anyone who goes through their training and manages to recruit a certain amount of people, (it was 6 the last I heard) becomes one. The "region" the RVP presides over can be as small as his Thanksgiving day table. There are, to the best of my knowledge, no extra educational requirements or licenses needed to become one.

William, It was Mr. Scott Warrens or Warren I'm not sure, he was or so he said, RVP of Primerica. Thanks goodness for ripoffrepot.com. However, when they would have asked for the 200 bucks for class I would have been out the door, but, at least I didnt let it get to that point!!

They took my time and told me they were looking for managers for thier business because they were on the brink of expanding. They said that I would be perfect for the job because of my expierience in management. The rep also had the audacity to tell me that i do not need to go to college because i would make so much more money in the business. Red Flag. They also manipulated this older gentlemen into giving his 200 dollars. They talked to him and cornered him until he gave in. The reps were all like, he is an awesome recruiter giving him high fives and chanting amens. What they didnt realize, is thats how they got into the business the same exact way. Red Flag. They called me relentlessly. Atleast five times a day and the phone calls just now stopped after six weeks. Red Flag. I stopped going to the stupid meetings on saturday mornings and driving an hour away to go to these "training" sessions. All they were was to praise those who lied to their new reps and yelling at those who seemed like they didnt care enough about Primerica. Enough said, meghan which rep called you?

As I was sitting here reading this page, my cellhone rang it was Primerica asking to set-up an interview with me. How ironic, I told him he can forget that, asked me if I was in the middle of something, and I said I was in the middle of reading about them on Rip-Off Report.com and to have a wonderful day.

As I was sitting here reading this page, my cellhone rang it was Primerica asking to set-up an interview with me. How ironic, I told him he can forget that, asked me if I was in the middle of something, and I said I was in the middle of reading about them on Rip-Off Report.com and to have a wonderful day.

As I was sitting here reading this page, my cellhone rang it was Primerica asking to set-up an interview with me. How ironic, I told him he can forget that, asked me if I was in the middle of something, and I said I was in the middle of reading about them on Rip-Off Report.com and to have a wonderful day.

As I was sitting here reading this page, my cellhone rang it was Primerica asking to set-up an interview with me. How ironic, I told him he can forget that, asked me if I was in the middle of something, and I said I was in the middle of reading about them on Rip-Off Report.com and to have a wonderful day.

Anthony in Beltsville.. Thanks for the info regarding downgrading. I have always tipped my hat to the marketing genius of A.L. Williams. Vince McMahon can't hold a candle to him. A.L. looked at the insurance world as it existed in 1975, in which the typical agent came in to the business, wrote 6-7 policies to relatives and close friends, made some first year commissions, then dropped out once his "warm" market was used up. A.L. figured out a way to get ALL the commissions for himself. He borrowed from Amway and came up with a "training (sic) period" in which the new agent gave ALL the commissions away to his supervisor, but was convinced he'd become a millionairre for doing it. No way Vince McMahon could pull something that obvious over on wrestling fans.

Jay in Cleveland.. Thank you for the excellent information on loans. Since I don't do them I learned a bunch from reading your post. One thing you touched on is that the most interest is paid in the early years of the loan. Since primericans are always throwing around the Rule of 72 when it comes to investing (as if it actually meant anything in real life) they ought to start talking about the Rule of 78 in lending....which does have every day practical applications. For those who don't know it means that in the first one-twelth of the time period of the loan you will pay 12/78ths of the interest. In the second twelth of the loan you will pay 11/78ths, so forth and so on. Jay, in the examples I had been giving I had been saying that the lenders would pay exactly the same as primerica was going to charge them. This meant a loan would be paid off in about 18-1/2 years. On a $250,000 loan it meant the folks would save $89,000 in interest by NOT using gary and the rest of the half trained army at primerica. You asked about insurance rates, a 44 year old couple that covered the above $250,000 loan with term life insurance would pay an additional $8400 purchasing from gary and the rest of the half trained army from primerica gary's response to the above info was: "so what if people pay a little extra interest and premiums. We make up for it with service" My own opinion is that for a $97,000 difference that extra service ought to include dates with Sharon Stone, Nicole Kidman, Catherine Zeta-Jones, etc....... Finally...yes I already knew primerica had been downgraded. I just wanted to make gary say it or obviously avoid the question....like he did. Shills are famous for that

Leroy, I told you that Primerica's AM Best rating was downgraded. Gary won't answer you because he knows that information is easily obtained and he wouldn't dare say "NO". He's just trying to find a way to make a BS excuse as to why they were downgraded. I have sat back, coming on this site every once in a while and noticed that Gary does nothing but talk in circles. It is obvious; Gary knows nothing about real estate and mortgages (which is my area of expertise) because he makes such asinine statements concerning mortgages and consumer debt. He doesn't realize that other companies, like Quicken Loans, specialize in equity loans for debt transfer purposes (which don't give you a benefit until you sell your home at or above the value of your mortgage). He doesn't realize that most if not all lending institutions offer bi-weekly mortgage payments (which equate to 13 full monthly payments) at lower costs of borrowing than Primerica can offer. Primerica adds the extra 1-2% because they can, why, because of their target market! The last time I made comments against what Gary wrote, he made some stupid insult towards my childhood like he lived next door to me or something. The funny thing is; all Gary has is cheap insults, not intelligence, just insults. Why, because it's insulting to financial advisors', mortgage brokers', etc. when Gary & Primerica pretends that they can give financial advice. It's an insult to debt consultants' to watch Gary & Primerica attempt to convince people that an 8%, 26yr mortgage, with bi-weekly payments is cheaper than a 6%, 30yr mortgage, with bi-weekly payments. EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, IT'S NOT! Why, the 26 year mortgage WOULD NOT be a 26 year mortgage without the bi-weekly payments. It's actually a regular 30 year mortgage, marketed differently. The 6% mortgage being paid bi-weekly will not reach the year of maturity (30 years); it won't even reach 26 years; it will be paid off way before that, try 24 years. Hell, the 6% mortgage, or any mortgage for that matter won't reach 30 years if paid monthly; they'll make it to 29 years. But let's get to the fundamentals: You have a $50,000.00 mtg, 8%, 30yr AMORT; bi-weekly payments will be $183.44. That mortgage will be paid off in 22 years with a total cost of borrowing equating to $58,245.34. Then you have a $50,000.00 mtg, 6%, 30yr AMORT, bi-weekly payments will be $149.89. That mortgage will be paid off in 24 years, HOWEVER, the total cost of borrowing equating to $45,098.20, which is $13,147.14 (or 22.6%) cheaper. (Note: If you DO amortize the loan over 26 years instead of 30 years, you STILL pay almost $7K more in interest although the loan is paid off in 20 years.) Gary & Primerica just cost a consumer over 13K more just because the 8% loan is paid off 2 years earlier. Let's quickly explain why the 8% loan paid off faster. Simple, you have a fixed monthly payment that is significantly higher in the 8% loan as opposed to the 6%. Therefore, once the cost of borrowing (which as we know comes out at the beginning of a loan) has been satisfied to a point where the principal payment is more than the interest payment (this theoretically happens around the same time in every loan regardless of the interest rate), the principal in the 8% loan is getting $33.55 more dollars paid against it than the 6% loan which equates to $872.30 dollars more per year being applied to the principal. However, in the beginning of both loans, the 8% loan, of course, was paying more out in interest. See Gary; on the surface, Primerica makes the interest rate look insignificant, but when you get down to the actual numbers, the lower cost of borrowing wins, which means, lending from someone else other than Primerica will keep $13,147.14 more dollars in your pocket. The funny thing is; if the consumer paid the 30 year mortgage monthly, the total cost of borrowing would still be less ($57,919.09). If it was a more realistic situation, say a $175K mortgage, the savings will be over $46K. Please don't say that the spreads are not at least 1-2%, because they are and you know it! Why, because the higher the interest rate, the faster the loan gets paid off. If it was a 10% loan, the loan would be paid off in 20 years, but you would pay $68,587.53 in the cost of borrowing for an increase of only $35.95 in a monthly payment (from $183.44 to $219.39). I'm not in the insurance business so I won't speak on that. But if Primerica is ripping its mortgage clients off, then imagine how their insurance agents are getting over. Bottom line Gary, you're an idiot; Primerica is still the MLM of the financial services industry; and you all are still preying on the low class, misinformed family.

Leroy FYI, AM Best did downgraded PFS along with Natiional Benefit Life to A+ from A++ effective July 01, 2005. Mostly due to sale of The Travelers. PFS is still losing agents as fast as they get them, its just a revolving door that makes it a net plus for PFS corporate. Regards,

I received a similiar phone call as reported in previous comments and rebuttals. I have no idea how Primerica got my contact information, but they left me a message about a job opportunity on my work voicemail! I googled Primerica and there were a ton of rip off reports. After reading up on all of your reviews, I have no intention of contacting them so... THANK YOU!

Its been 96 hours since I asked Gary the primerica shill a simple question....... "Since primeriaca does not have the highest possible rating for financial stability from A.M. Best, did they recently get downgraded or have they never achieved it?" Gary has answered numerous other posts on other threads so I know he has had the time to answer. I'm sure he DOESN'T WANT TO ANSWER.

gary...all of that bluster and you didn't give me a simple yes or no answer. I was told primerica was recently downgraded by A.M. Best in the last several months. Is that true or not? Primerica doesn't have the highest rating possible so either they have never achieved it or they did and were downgraded. Which is it?

Your quote: "I was told primerica's rating was recently downgraded by A.M. Best? Is that correct?" There you go again, implying we have financial problems. AM Best lists us as A+ Superior with a credit score of aa = superior. However, I can remember a number of years ago, AM Best reduced an insurance company's rating from A+ to a B+. That company protested as they spend thousands of dollars on AM Best's information plus this drop in ratings would hurt their future sales thus making it more difficult to get a higher score. So AM Best gave them back their A+ rating & just a few months later, that company went bankrupt. Of course I'm sure they found a buyer ... that's one of the reasons so many insurance companys have gone thru mergers in order to stay afloat... and a lot (of those mergers) had to do with a "run on cash values". When we signed an agreement with Primerica Life (when it was still MILICO - which was rated A+ by AM Best - to begin marketing their term insurance), AM Best caved into pressure by the whole life industry & reduced their rating to a B+. Not because they had any financial issues, but simply that A L Williams began marketing their term insurance, exclusively. You stated: "It's my opinion, I am entitled to it and I can repeat my opinion here, in a public forum, since I claim no special expertise or actuarial experience." You said it all ... (about you) ... right there! When I finally confronted my former life insurance agent about "net effective yield" and "time value of money" and how his company could have protected me with 10 times more coverage for the same premium but (he) discouraged me from buying term as it was not permanent insurance. He also could have set up a separate investment so that eventually I would become self insured thru investing & could eliminate the need for life insurance over time. When I asked him why?? ... He said ... "that's the way I've been doing it for the past 30 years, but that's not how the industry does it!" He now could tell me the truth, as he had retired from the business. (Remember he was a friend of my Dad, so I naturally trusted him.) He had been buying term & investing the difference but was selling cash value insurance & discouraging the sale of term insurance. Can you say .... hippocrit?

1. When I said that a couple could purchase $350,000 of term life for the same premium gary responded with....."so now they may be overinsured. Did you think of that?" The answer is if they don't need $350,000 but only $250,000 primerica would make them "overpremiumed". 2. Gary says I have never seen Primerica's Financial Needs Analysis. Yeah I have. Its a canned sales track. It differs only from what we used as far back the 1970s under different names in that it has a track designed to get consumers to roll consumer debt into their home debt. 3. Gary still objects to the fact that a client now has a $68,000 death benefit for the same premium he paid when the policy was $25,000. He says the policy could lapse if the person took out the $45,000. He also says all companies use the 1980 Mortality table. First of all, most companies are now using the 2000 Mortality Table, not 1980. Thats why many policies are now being written out to age 120. Possibly clinging to that 1980 Mortality table is another reason primerica's rates are so high. I implied if he took out the $45,000 in cash he'd lose the death benefit. I figured you'd understand that was a valid choice he could make...and one which he wouldn't have with term insurance. He also has the choice now of not paying anymore premium at all and letting the dividends pay the premium. 4. gary objects to the fact I replaced a primerica policy, got the clients $188,000 more in death benefit and saved them $2 a month in premium. gary, without knowing what in their situation might have changed since their primerica agent sold them a policy and then left the business, like 99% of all primerica agents do. He now assumes they are overinsured without knowing if they have a larger mortgage, bought a business, have 4 more kids, etc. In other words he is flailing about trying to find a reason why its bad to get people $188,000 more term life coverage for $2 less a month. 5. gary wants to know if the 5.38% the people earned on a dividend paying whole life is the gross return or "net effective yield". It depends Gary, on whether they borrow out the cash under IRC 7702 or take the money and run. After 20 years in the biz, so you say, you should have known that before you asked the question. Maybe you should have asked are they business owners with a paper loss they can use to offset the gain in the policy. maybe you should have asked about 100 other questions first. Gary then asked how long did it take to make that return and points out most people drop a policy within 5-7 years. So what? These people didn't drop it. If someone is going to keep a policy 5-7 years they should buy 10 year term. Insurance contracts have always rewarded those who stay in the contract. Nothing new or unusual there. Once again, you're trying to make the case whole life is NEVER good. I'm using this policy to point out that it is sometimes good. IT DEPENDS Someone who is too untrained to know whether whole life might be suitable or not is an idiot whether they work for primerica or prudential or has a talk show on radio or TV. 6. gary says all insurance is permanent as long as you pay the premium including term. Au contraire gary. 20 year term renewable to age 95 has a definite termination date...age 95. If you live to be 96 you're out of luck. Whole life on the other hand has an ENDOWMENT date, in which the policyholder will be paid his money dead or alive. Which is better? IT DEPENDS! THEORY OF DECREASING RESPONSIBILITY. I scoff at that. It only works if the person goes through life in a straight line with no detours, no changes. Its very rare when someone goes through life without their situation changing and responsibilities rising and falling, even at later ages. I sold 20 term policies to a 62 year old couple last summer who had just bought a $300,000 dream vacation home. According the that Theory, they wouild have no responsibilities now. 7. gary is upset I pointed out a lie about him saying 80% of policies sold are cash value policies. Its actually 55%. He then quotes a 30 year old book. He said it was when he started in this business (which time?). Update your knowledge every so often gary. Don't bury your head into that primerica cocoon. 8. gary is upset I used his 50% commission example as a prrof primerica reps don't know anything about the business primerica didn't tell them. He tries to wiggle out of it. Well here ya go gary. I can get 100% on 30 year term insurance, but if I broker a whole life policy for a company domiciled in New York State I can only get 55%. besides, the fact remains, people will always choose a plan that is the most comfortable for them financially and so there is NO financial incentive to me to push them into something they don't want. They'll drop it. I'll get a chargeback. 9. gary tries to say that the ONLY reason an agent from another company would meet with a client is to sell them something new and that only he and his primerica cohorts just keep up to keep up. Since about 99% of primerica agents are gone within a year the rest of you don't have time to get back to people. I have never, I repeat NEVER met with a couple insured with primerica that ever had any followup from the company, other than the monthly bill showing up promptly. Besides your basic premise that only primerica reps would show up and meet with a client again for purely altruistic reason is bullfeathers. 10. gary still tries to say MOST people don't know the difference between a home equity line and a traditional first mortgage. Well, when I see a credible source tell me that is so, I'll believe it. Until then I refuse to believe the populace is as dumb as you say it is. 11. gary still tries to say a 7.5% mortgage with a biweekly loan is better than a 6.0% traditional mortgage. COMPLETELY IGNORING THE FACT the person with the 6.0% mortgage can duplicate that biweekly plan by paying 8.33% more principla and interest with each payment and therefore cut their time in debt over a 7.5% primerica loan by almost 4 years. Yes gary, its nauseating to me too to have to revisit this when the math is so clear, and The Mortgage Encyclopedia (gary loves to quote books) calls it a scam. Anyone, I mean ANYONE who could qulaify for a 6.0% loan and chooses to take a 7.5% loan instead based on voodoo mathematics like primerica peddles deserves the hosing they take. 12. gary gets really silly with lier lier (sic) pants on fire stuff. Yes gary, I know you meant primerica as a whole sells 20,000-35,000 policies a month and not just your team. I just wanted to point out to anyone still bothering to read us that a company with a meager 2.5% growth in premium selling that many policies a month had to be have a similar but smaller number of dropped policies. 13.I didn't say primerica was currently in trouble, not at all. What I said was they needed to have policies lapse to free up reserve money. All companies do. Its a matter of degree. What I have always said was IN MY OPINION if primerica runs into a problem down the road it will be due to their liabilty/reserve ratios being so high because they sell only term insurance. It's my opinion, I am entitled to it and I can repeat my opinion here, in a public forum, since I claim no special expertise or actuarial experience. When I have said that I have been careful to say I was not implying primerica was in an any financial trouble. I will let rating agencies do that. I was told primerica's rating was recently downgraded by A.M. Best? Is that correct?

ive read all the posts and ask myself why dont you give up? Leroy and Stuart have been treating you like a red headed stepchild. They tear apart your Crimerica zombie like rants and raves by giving you solid facts and figures with the supporting documentation. Your response? More Scientology like chanting straight from the Primerica playbook that would make Tom Cruise blush. Dont stop posting as I need my nightly entertainment! cheers, Jay

PS: In response.... to your statements on your last post.... 1. "$250,000 for the same premium with which they could have bought $350,000 elsewhere" That $350,000 could have left them over insured, did you ever think of that? And with the 1,000 companies as you stated that could sell them cheaper term insurance, how many of those companies contacted this family (example) & made them that offer?? Other than you, that is! 2. "they didn't determine how much money to buy based on what the(y) could afford but through a canned sales track...(aka Financial Needs Analysis form)" Have you ever seen our FNA? Doubt it - as it's not a form..... It's easy to criticize something you've never seen. 3. "but remember, the $45,000 in cash value gets swallowed up when the insured dies" - So what? They are paying the same price now for $68,000 death benfit as they were for $25,000 twenty-nine years ago. If the cash values are the greater concern over the death benefit its their OPTION to take the money out now." Dumb ... Dumb ... Dumb! They're paying the same Premium but the cost has gone up! All newer insurance is based on the 1980 mortality rates (two of my old cash value policies were still using the 1958 mortality charges in 1984! It said that in my policies. If they withdraw the Cash values (all $45,000) that would cause a policy to lapse, as the insurance company is using that money to self-insure the client, so they would lose that $68,000 Protection, right? Thot you knew that? 4. "Besides getting them a new twenty year period starting now, I got them an additional $188,000 of coverage EACH, and the premium is $2 a month lower than primerica was." Great! So you may have over-insured them... don't know what they have to protect or what debts they need to get paid off. But did you help them restructure their debt, help them to invest the difference instead of buying them more insurance, in other words do a complete Financial Needs Analysis for them at no charge? You still have not answered my question about the conversion clause with your term insurance, to whole life?? 5. "scoffed at the 5.38% return the whole life premiums had earned. The MAIN POINT is that 5.38% is what a policy earned in REAL LIFE, not the 2% you continually repeat based on your 30 year old sales track." Is that 5.38% - the gross return or the net effective yield? There's a huge difference you know? When we say 2% or less, that's the net effective yield after all expenses have gotten deducted from the premium. The first 1-5 years (depending on the company) no money goes into the cash values, that can make it a negative 100% - 500% return! So how long will it take a policy to actually earn that 5.38% - 20-30 years?? Most people do not keep their policies more than 5-7 years as those agents out there are coming back to those same people & trading their old policies for new ones, to generate more commissions for themselve & more profits for the insurance companies, right or wrong? Don't tell me that they're Holyer than thow & that's not being done. I know better & so do you, but you will not admit to it. 6. "asks how much death benefit the $625 would have purchased. Back then about $125,000. Thats the decision you make between whole life and term. Do you want a temporary death benefit or a permanent one? How much death benefit would they have now had they bought term 29 years ago? The answer is ZERO! Now they have $68,000. Which is better?" Another traditional whole life sales ploy with this permanent versus temporary insurance! All insurance is permanent as long as you pay the premium... til age 99 in most states. (It was 95 in Texas!) So they could have bought 5 times more coverage for the same premium they're paying on whole life and if you sold this, you left them underinsured, correct? $125,000 will buy a lot more groceries than $25,000 will, right or wrong? And it will buy almost twice as much as the $68,000 will today, right or wrong?? My question: Did they purchase this for the savings or the insurance or both? Remember the cash values gets surrendered to the insurance company upon death? Buying term & investing outside the policy in an IRA is the best way to get the most value from your dollar. And as their investments grow, they reduce their debts, their kids get grown they can reduce the death benefit as they're becoming self-insured. (The Theory of Decreasing Responsibility) 7. "80% of policies sold are permanent insurance and then objects to the fact that any sold are permanent. The MAIN POINT is they lied to you gary. What else did they lie to you about?" When I began in this business about 80%-85% of new policies getting sold were some form of cash value. (What's Wrong With Your Life Insurance, by Norman Dacey) They're still on the books, was my point!! (minus any lapses, replacements, etc.) Today as you stated it's more like 55% "bundled" life insurance is sold which leaves 45% term so it has improved. However, it's our experience that the middle income families who need protection the most have now gotten ignored by these companies. A lot of the Generation X's have no insurance at all, as the big company's do not market to them as it's not a profitable business. As for the "Baby Boomers,they're now going after the upper class (net worth of $100,000 plus) to sell their products to & ignoring the average family ... about 80% of the poplulation. 8. "says that an agent getting paid the same commission for whole life or term is a pile of it...then gives an example of a NEW agent starting out at 50% commission for selling 30 year term. Again gary, THEY LIED TO YOU! A new agent selling his very first policy gets 90-100% commission on 30 year term, not 50%." I mearly used that 50% as an example for simple minded people to see the difference, evidently you did not! OK, if an agent gets 100% commission and he / she has a choice between ... let's say $400 premium for a $200,000 term policy or $2,100 premium for a $200,000 Whole life policy, what would they push? Something that will pay them $400 or something that will make them $2,100 richer?? Duh!! (you left that income part out) 9. "Gary objects to an agent meeting with clients over the years to reassess their needs. Gary, theory is one thing, real life is another. Primerica deals in a fairy tale world where theory actually works, where people's circumstances do not change radically from one time to another. Its the job of the agent in his continuing relationship with the client to show them the solutions that meet with their needs at THAT period in time." I never said that ... you said it. The FNA is not cut in stone, I have met with my clients & do so on a regular basis, but not to sell them something they do not need. If they have any changes the FNA will detect that & I will redo it for them at no charge. If their plan is still working with no changes that's the end of it. Only if they show a need to adjust something, and those changes will benefit them ... do we go ahead & make those adjustments. Once again you love to criticize what you don't know! The relationship you refer to with the traditional whole life salesman is this: Get married, buy a policy, buy a home, buy a policy, have a kid, get more insurance, get a promotion with big pay raise, they sell you another policy. Now that this "relationships" built, they agent wants to win a trip to Hawaii, he sells you another policy, you have a 2nd child, he sells you a policy. Ad naseum ..... 10. "MOST people don't know the difference between a HomeEquity Line and a Traditional mortgage." Yep, that's right. Why are bankruptcies at an all time high, why does the average household have over $9,000 in credit card debt? Why were most mortgages (over 50%) sold in California ... interest only or Adustable Rate Mortgages?? When people get their paychecks ... it does not come with a set of instructions, now does it? People do dumb stuff with their money. It's not cause they're stupid but they're ignorant & there's no one helping educate them about all those aspects of winning the money game... except for PFS. 11. "is better to be exposed to a 7.5% rate for 20 years than a 6.5% rate for 30 years." We're been over this topic so many times I'm getting nauseated. Just do the math, I have & a Citibank mortgage loan on my home, and it beat all the one's we compared it to (3 other mortgage companies) where their interest rates were lower, but they did not have the Equity Builder & charged for the bi-weekly payment plan. The closest came to $54,000 dollars higher payoff than Citibank's loan. But it was a lower rate! 12. "(G)ary talks about his team and how they write 20,000-35,000 term policies a month . . . then somewhere between 19,500-34,000 people are DROPPING PFS policies each month." Lier - Lier, pants on fire! There you go twisting, again! I never said "my team". I said "Primerica" - meaning the whole company, will write that many policies in one month & we're doing it right now!! Geesh! And our "not taken" is normal by industry standards. And finally: "primerica NEEDS to have that many people to drop policies so it frees up cash from reserves and keeps them out of a cash flow pinch. Yes gary, I've heard of reinsurance treaties, but when you are selling 100% term it means your reserve ratios could someday lead to a cash flow pinch and company failure." Be careful about this remark, are you saying we're in financial difficulty & will be out of business? You're hanging yourself out to dry on this one, so you'd better be careful. Primerica Life's a legal reserve life insurance company and as we get people debt free & financially independant they will not need to keep those policies in force forever, so we will not have any cash flow pinch the way the traditional industry did back many years ago when they only sold 100% term insurance... pre 1940's.... Whew! THE END....

Have you ever played twister? You could have invented it! I said the company, Primerica, Nationally will issue 20,000 - 35,000 term policies (give or take a few) each & every month. Not my team! So you can stop with the twisting. We get people debt free, financially independant & protect their family's income thru term insurance while they're becoming self-insured. Then they can begin reducing their life insurance coverage & invest the difference. I had never gotten contacted by anyone in the industry to help me do any of that - until I got referred to A L Williams - (now Primerica) by a close friend. I have come across only two families personally that had sought out another broker & that broker was charging them retainer fees of between $500 & $600 per year. They had the proper protection, but were sold Variable Universal Life for protection & their investments. And this broker did not set up any IRA account & did nothing with restructuring their debt until I came along. These two families were paying over $250 per month on their policies & I gave them better coverage (on the wife & kids) & kept the husbands the same as what they had, for 1/2 the premium. I helped them setting up IRA's, College funds for their kids, & with debt restructuring. They did not have to write me a retainer fee check to do that either. So that's all I have to say on that. You can keep on keeping on, with your hate mongering. But I suggest you could help the USA & the World, by finding something else better to do with your time than slandering Primerica.

1. Gary says he has never left anyone underinsured Sure you have gary, everytime you sold them a $250,000 for the same premium with which they could have bought $350,000 elsewhere. 2. Gary says they didn't determine how much money to buy based on what the could afford but through a canned sales track...(aka Financial Needs Analysis form) Gary thats good to know you admit that you don't bother listening to your clients but instead listen to the propaganda primerica put on a sales form. 3. Referring to the ACTUAL perfromance of a whole life policy I've had in force for 29 years in which the original death benefit had grown from $25,000 to $68,000 thorugh the use of dividends as paid up additiions gary says "but remember, the $45,000 in cash value gets swallowed up when the insured dies" So what? They are paying the same price now for $68,000 death benfit as they were for $25,000 twenty-nine years ago. If the cash values are the greater concern over the death benefit its their OPTION to take the money out now. 4. Gary says these people are way over premiumed and way underinsured. I recently replaced primerica a couple had bought three years. Besides getting them a new twenty year period starting now, I got them an additional $188,000 of coverage EACH, and the premium is $2 a month lower than primerica was. Who is overpremiuming and underinsuring? 5. Gary scoffed at the 5.38% return the whole life premiums had earned. I never said they should have 100% of their savings in a conservative guaranteed investemnt like whole life. I did say 5.38% is about what they would have earned in municipal bonds and that ain't bad. The MAIN POINT is that 5.38% is what a policy earned in REAL LIFE, not the 2% you continually repeat based on your 30 year old sales track. 6. gary asks how much death benefit the $625 would have purchased. Back then about $125,000. Thats the decision you make between whole life and term. Do you want a temporary death benefit or a permanent one? How much death benefit would they have now had they bought term 29 years ago? The answer is ZERO! Now they have $68,000. Which is better? The answer that good agents give is IT DEPENDS! Bad ones have answer and its always the same. 7. gary finally admits that his PFS propaganda stating 80% of policies sold are permanent insurance and then objects to the fact that any sold are permanent. The MAIN POINT is they lied to you gary. What else did they lie to you about? 8. Gary says that an agent getting paid the same commission for whole life or term is a pile of it...then gives an example of a NEW agent starting oyut at 50% commission for selling 30 year term. Again gary, THEY LIED TO YOU! A new agent selling his very first policy gets 90-100% commission on 30 year term, not 50%. It renders the rest of your example useless but more importantly. THEY LIED TO YOU ABOUT WHAT OTHER COMPANIES PAY FOR COMMISSION. WHAT ELSE DID THEY LIE TO YOU ABOUT? 9. Gary objects to an agent meeting with clients over the years to reassess their needs. Gary, theory is one thing, real life is another. Primerica deals in a fairy tale world where theory actually works, where people's circumstances do not change radically from one time to another. Its the job of the agent in his continuing relationship with the client to show them the solutions that meet with their needs at THAT period in time. Its only in the rarest circumstances that someone buys a policy and it perfectly meets their needs forever. 10. gary says 'MOST people don't know the difference between a HomeEquity Line and a Traditional mortgage. MOST?? MOST?? Is this another PFSism like 80% of all policies sold are whole life? There are some who don't know, but MOST? 11. Gary gives standard PFS crud about its better to be exposed to a 7.5% rate for 20 years than a 6.5% rate for 30 years. Its something PFS marketing thought up in order to obfuscate the fact they are charging consumers 7.5% for loans when they could qualify for 6-6.5% loans elsewhere. That would be true ONLY if the 7.5% rate for 20 years existed in a vacume and could not be duplicated at 6.5% elsewhere. Biweekly payment plans which whittle 30 year mortgages down to 22 years can be duplicated by paying an extra 8.33% of the principle and interest with each payment. Equal payments to a 7.5% loan and a 6.5% loan can easily be duplicated, and it by doing it on the 6.5% loan will cut the length of the loan down to 18-1/2 years. 12. Finally ary talks about his team and how they write 20,000-35,000 term policies a month. If that is the case, then somewhere between 19,500-34,000 people are DROPPING PFS policies each month because Standard & Poor says primerica only had 2.5% growth in premium over 2004 and thats anemic. By the way gary, primerica NEEDS to have that many people to drop policies so it frees up cash from reserves and keeps them out of a cash flow pinch. Yes gary, I've heard of reinsurance treaties, but when you are selling 100% term it means your reserve ratios could someday lead to a cash flow pinch and company failure.

OK, you accused me of leaving people under insured. Which I have never done, the coverage is based on a the results from the FNA, based on the clients needs, not on what they can afford! But then - you quoted a whole life policy with dividends and a $25,000 beginning death benefit, but with the current dividends the policy has grown to $68,278 ($45,292 in cash values) & paying $625.00 per year. Did you ask them how much they could afford or how much income they wanted to protect? Remember the $45,292 (cash values) gets surrendered to the insurance company to pay that death benefit? So they have a $68,278 death benefit with a $45,292 dollar deductable, right? If this is one of yours, looks like you left them waaaaay underinsured & over-premiumed. Oh, but they're earning 5.38%, which doesn't even keep up with taxes & inflation! (another moot point as the insurance company gets the savings to help them pay the death benefit, right?) 5.38% on nothing is how much?? How much term insurance would that $625 in premium have bought them? Alot more than $25,000, right? Even $68,278 after a funeral expenses would only give that family about 1 1/2 year's income! Then what ... Sell the house, move in with relatives, go on welfare ?? NOW FROM ONE OF YOUR (other) POSTS THAT GOT MISSED? 1. 45% all life insurance sold was Term, that still leaves 55% cash value insurance still being sold! That's my point which you somehow just skim right over... WE at PFS only market 100% Term insurance, period! What is it you do not understand about - marketing Term 100%?? (and not as a loss-leader the way the traditional industry does). And of the Term I have personally come across, we beat those rates over a 20-30 period! So my point is, I have not come across any of YOUR cheap term policies that you sell, but all the rest I have beaten! 2. You say agents get paid the same selling Term or Cash Value & sometimes even more commission selling Term... that's also a pile of it! To keep it simple ...Let's say an agent gets 50% commission just starting out in the business. (His trainer and/or upline will also get an over-ride on that business.) OK, $200,000 Term (30) yr level - premium $490 per year X 50% = $245.00 commission. Then $200,000 Cash Value - premium $2,100 per year X 50% = $1,050 commission. They get paid the "same" percentage, so you were partially telling the truth, but the commission dollars are not even close! The problem is, most people with average incomes, can't afford $2,100 per year for life insurance so the agent backs it down to a lower premium & lower death benefit, leaving the family underinsured. Then he see's in the newspaper where that client gets a job promotion (bingo - more repeat business!) & he sells them another policy, they get married - he sells them another policy, they have a baby - sells them another policy, buys a new home - sells them another policy, has another kid - sells them a policy, the agent gets a divorce - sells them another policy, the agent's company has this "contest" & he has just one more policy to sell to win that trip to Hawaii - sells them another policy, the client's wife goes to work outside of the home - sells them another policy - don't tell me this does not go on .... it does!! Why prospect for new business when you can just keep going back & adding more insurance to those same clients?? I had mentioned Home Equity Line of Credit along with traditional Mortgages, now you're saying that I'm comparing apples to oranges. I never said those were the same, one is revolving & the other's simple interest, period. But most people do not understand the difference, so naturally the bank or mortgage company plays on their ignorance in order to take advantage of them... that's all that I said! You've been using 30-year old myths about us with your mixing facts with fiction. The fact is I & my team will out sell you by yourself any day of the week. As a company if only 20% of us do anything, in any given month - we will issue 20,000 - 35,000 policies per month - all of them 100% Term! Not 45% as you claim! It would take you a life time to do what we do in a month! I would much rather get exposed to an 7 1/2% loan & have it paid off in 20 years (or less), than a 6 1/2% loan & have to paid off in 30 years! I know you hate us but God says to love thy enemy. It's people like you that motivates me! I would however (knowing what I know about you so far), never recruit you into my business! Maybe that's the reason why you're so P'd Off!

Leroy in Tulare, Thanks for your FACTUAL input. Also, some anti-PFS readings: Retirement Income Manage Your Money and Investments with Microsoft Excel (Paperback) The Mortgage Encyclopedia, copyright 2004 by Jack Guttentag Especially noteworthy is STAYING ON SCHEDULE on page 237 as well as Mortgage SCAMS and Tricks on pages 112-123. Be especially careful to read page 114 as many times as you need to to understand it fully.

Jay, Thank you for your intelligent and well thought out "test" for Primerica agents...note that I do not work for Primerica, only briefly investigated their opportunity, and did not join at any point. Will you concede the following points? 1) On average, 80% of the earnings in almost any commission based organization is made from the top 20% of the sales force. This is universally accepted as a general truth in commission sales. 2) Some Primerica agents do not earn any money from their respective "careers". For whatever reason that may be. 3) In any commission based sales position, you are paid according to how intelligently you work and complete sales (both must apply). 4) In any business model, in order to continue to grow, recruiting is necessary. 5) Businesses in general have their share of good and bad employees, along with a percentage of customer complaints, litigation, bad practices etc... 6) A version of the "pyramid scheme" exists in most businesses (one "fat cat" gets paid a higher amount of money at the top of multiple levels of hiearchy). 7) In terms of education, I am sure not all Primerica agents can be lumped together into the one category of lacking training and education. In a total recruitment of over 100,000 people, I find it hard to believe that every one of them fit the category you seem to place them in. And the last point... What makes Primerica, when taken as a whole business and not in parts, any different from the majority of businesses out there? Other companies may have different faults and opportunities, but all companies have faults and opportunity...don't they? The top 5% do make a decent living at Primerica as stated by yourself... The only question remains...and I do not wish to work for Primerica, that would anyone be willing to put forth the sacrifice necessary and GAIN the education necessary to be in the top 5%?

The Buy term invest the difference argument becomes moot when the company trying to sell the term insurance charges as much or more for term than someone else charges for universal life. For example; A 46 year old male....smokeless tobacco user $150,000 Primerica 20 year term............$1455 Well known A+ rated company Universal Life Guaranteed No lapse to age 100, $150,000 guaranteed cash value at age 100...$1668 Thats a $213 difference. Primerica would have to find a FULLY GUARANTEED AND GOVERNMENT INSURED investment that would pay him 7.274% AFTER TAXES and AFTER EXPENSES to equal it. There aren't any! Now a 46 year old female.....just a few cigarettes a day with nicotine levels under the allotted value. Primerica 20 year term.................$1455 Well know A+ rated company Universal life Guarnateed No Lapse until age 100, $150,000 guaranteed cash value at age 100........$1412.50 Thats LESS than primerica charges for term. How do you invest the difference when there is none? Of course the argument is I cherry picked a situation to make primerica look bad. I plead guilty. Thats not the point. The point is had that person just taled to a primerica rep he/she would have had absolutely no idea such a policy existed smokeless tobacco or very occassional smokers. The primerica rep wouldn't have known. The primerica rep would have simply taken him to the cleaners. Now if you want to argue buy term and invest the difference with the LOWEST possible term rates those 46 year olds could buy....thats a different story. Primerica would be $1455 on both the 46 year old man and the woman......whereas I could get the woman term for $442 a year and the man $551 per year, this time with an A++ rated company that claims to be the largest company in the world. Once again...the point is if you deal with a half trained brainwashed primerica rep who has one company's product line to sell....you get drilled. If you deal with a knowledgeable independent you can save yourself a TON OF $$$$> The same sort of large rate differences appear between primerica and other insurance companies among those with controlled high blood pressure or high cholesterol and those with controlled diabetes. Gary, you can post your lunacy without fear of me shredding you for a while. I'm headed to some National Parks for the next 9 days.

1. gary asks if any of the 600 companies I can quote offer banding. << Virtually ALL OF THEM DO!!!!! What? You think banding started with primerica?? LOL 2. Gary says his record is replacing 16 policies in one family. << Hmmmm...first off it would seem that some indiscriminate and improper replacement was going on. My record for replacing primerica is 13 policies in an extended family ....and all term for term. What does that tell you about primerica term? What does it tell you that the person who wrote all that term insurance for primerica is now my client? 3. Gary says something about insurance companies and banks being middle men for money. <

1. gary asks if any of the 600 companies I can quote offer banding. << Virtually ALL OF THEM DO!!!!! What? You think banding started with primerica?? LOL 2. Gary says his record is replacing 16 policies in one family. << Hmmmm...first off it would seem that some indiscriminate and improper replacement was going on. My record for replacing primerica is 13 policies in an extended family ....and all term for term. What does that tell you about primerica term? What does it tell you that the person who wrote all that term insurance for primerica is now my client? 3. Gary says something about insurance companies and banks being middle men for money. <

1. gary asks if any of the 600 companies I can quote offer banding. << Virtually ALL OF THEM DO!!!!! What? You think banding started with primerica?? LOL 2. Gary says his record is replacing 16 policies in one family. << Hmmmm...first off it would seem that some indiscriminate and improper replacement was going on. My record for replacing primerica is 13 policies in an extended family ....and all term for term. What does that tell you about primerica term? What does it tell you that the person who wrote all that term insurance for primerica is now my client? 3. Gary says something about insurance companies and banks being middle men for money. <

Does any of your companies offer "banding"? The higher the face amount the lower the cost per thousand. We have banding & can set up insurance (for example) to cover the mortgage (when we help with a mortgage refinance & it gets paid off in 20 years instead of 30 then only cover that portion for 20 years) income protection or providing for college education, pay off any debts, etc. (also banded just to cover that need & for the years necessary). Then the total amount of coverage added together is banded for a lower cost per thousand. We put one policy on the whole family with attached riders. We help with their investments in a separate account that they control & as they become self-insured & out of debt their need for insurance greatly diminishes. (Theory of Decreasing Responsability) I have replaced as many as 16 policies on one family with just one policy ... (my all time record!) ... eliminating all of those front end loads & policy fees. By the way those 16 policies were sold by the same agent to that same family but from 3 different companies. As he changed to different companies over a period of about 8 years (when he sold these policies to this family) Even the traditional insurance industry has a huge turn-over rate as he left one to join another! (probably got recruited to another company promissing better commissions - hey - it happens!) They had more coverage on their kids than on the breadwinner (DAD). The older policies were whole life but the new ones on their kids were UL as they paid better. He didn't replace the other ones with UL, cause they were so valuable? (or maybe he was still getting residuals & as-earns on them - so didn't want to lose any more income!) Everyone of those UL policy's cash surrender values were negative #'s. The projections did not even come close to what was actually in the UL policies & that also includes the whole life policies. (As I recall, one policy had a projection based on current rates of return of $6,000 when actually the cash values upon surrender of the whole life policy were $890! - not even in the ball park!) The UL policies had negative returns, no disclosure in the "illustration" showing the surrender charges. That page must have gotten removed or the agent did not print it off.. anyway these clients were more that p***ed off! Now you say the insurance industry's improving ... this is true. They're still selling cash value but only to people with high net worth & not even bothering with the middle class anymore ... 45% of insurance sold was term insurance ... I believe that's your statistics. That still leaves 55% cash value! If they stopped selling cash value insurance tomorrow ... it would take us a couple of generations to replace all of it, with term! Again, buy term & invest the rest is the best way to go. Even spending the rest would be better than allowing an insurance company to use it & pay us rent! Even those UL policies with their competitive mutual fund type returns ... have so many hidden fees, loads ... both front-end or back-end ... it totally defeats the purpose! That's not to say there are a few out there that might be OK, but who has the time to research hundreds or even thousands of policies to find the best fit?? Plus they use a rear-view mirror approach showing this is what we did last year but not what their over-all track record is. As an industry, their track record stinks! Investing in any kind of bundled insurance program ... the only one's who truely benefit or come out ahead ... are the insurance companies. Banks also fit that same category, too! Not that they're bad that's just how it is. Banks & Insurance Companies are "middle men for money". We loan our hard earned money to them & they pay us a guarantee (guaranteed loss - as their returns do not keep up with taxes & inflation) & they intern invest that money on the market. They keep all of the profits & pay us rent. That's why in any little town that has at least one bank, it's the fanciest building! "They" know about the Rule of 72 but do not share that with the general public. Go Figure! OH, yeah on the dividend paying policies, sure most of those companies are not PAR anymore, they've gone! But their policies still are out there & inforce! So lets say the electric company worked like the PAR insurance companies. They said - instead of paying $100 a month for your electriciy, (as you use it) we'll charge you $1,000 per month. That way if the rates go up you won't get any increases in your bill. (that $900 will go on account & we'll pay you interest but if the rates go too high we'll dip into your account to pay that difference out of that account) but if that account goes to zero, we will disconnect your service! Oh, & they also say you can be part owner by paying an additional $200 month & receive dividends. This can get used to buy more electricity but we don't know exactly what that rate will be... so we will invest that until some time when you may or may not need it, then we will give some of it back to you!! No one in their right mind would buy electricity that way, but that's how whole insurance gets sold - par or non par. I know I've over simplified it ....

Yes, primerica is growing exponentially as Ron in Bonita and Gary in Wichita claim. According to Standard and Poor Insurance profile primerica sales were up a WHOPPING 2.5% in 2005!!!!!!! WOW.....2.5%. Using that Rule of 72 these guys throw around as if it means something, doesn't that mean it would take primerica 28.8 years to double it's sales?

Yes, primerica is growing exponentially as Ron in Bonita and Gary in Wichita claim. According to Standard and Poor Insurance profile primerica sales were up a WHOPPING 2.5% in 2005!!!!!!! WOW.....2.5%. Using that Rule of 72 these guys throw around as if it means something, doesn't that mean it would take primerica 28.8 years to double it's sales?

Yes, primerica is growing exponentially as Ron in Bonita and Gary in Wichita claim. According to Standard and Poor Insurance profile primerica sales were up a WHOPPING 2.5% in 2005!!!!!!! WOW.....2.5%. Using that Rule of 72 these guys throw around as if it means something, doesn't that mean it would take primerica 28.8 years to double it's sales?

Yes, primerica is growing exponentially as Ron in Bonita and Gary in Wichita claim. According to Standard and Poor Insurance profile primerica sales were up a WHOPPING 2.5% in 2005!!!!!!! WOW.....2.5%. Using that Rule of 72 these guys throw around as if it means something, doesn't that mean it would take primerica 28.8 years to double it's sales?

1. Gary says "someone may have better term rates collecting dust or buried in their laptop" >>>Oh nonsense. You and I have covered this before. FORTY-FIVE PERCENT OF ALL POLICIES SOLD ARE TERM INSURANCE. You are either too intellectually lazy to check this out or prefer continuing to spread the myth (lie) only primerica sells term. I personally have software that quotes 600 companies term rates and updates them every two weeks. Am I going to pay for this service and never use the software? Is the software company going to put this product out and maintain it if no one is using it? 2. gary says "someone can make 5-7 times more commission selling cash value" >>We've been over this too. If the couple says they are willing to spend a certain amount on insurance per month it makes virtually no difference hoiw much commission the agent will make. In fact in many cases the agent will make less selling cash value insurance. You're either too intellectually lazy to check this out or prefer to continue spreading the primerica myth (lie). 3. Gary says he has never been beaten on 20 or 30 year term <>> No matter what the lower interest rate loan will end up costing the borrower less money over time. Comparing two entirely different types of loans, variable vs. fixed, is just an attempt to cloud that issue. 6. Gary says he is arguing with a dinosaur (me). >>>The reverse is true. You are spreading the same primerica myths they made up THIRTY YEARS AGO AS IF THE INSURANCE WORLD HASN'T CHANGED SINCE THEN. I'm your worst nightmare, an agent with experience and knowledge who sells more term insurance every week than the average primerican does in his career. 7. gary brags "primerica doesn't charge for biweekly loan payment options". >>>Big deal. On that 44 year old couple we mentioned before since primerica was going to charge tjhem an extra $89,000 in interest over 20 years I think they could afford to not charge any fee for their ridiculously high interest loans if the client chooses some odd payment plan.

Yes, there may be cheaper term rates "out there" collecting dust in someone's rate book (or saved on their laptop) - but evidently no agent is selling them. He/She works on commission & bottom line they have to feed their families. They will get 5-7 times more income (conservatively) selling some sort of cash value insurance & not 100% term. As I have repeatedly said, I have not gotten beaten yet with other company's term insurance over a 20-30 year period. That's my point. People are not educated to "buy term & invest the rest" they're told they're not smart enough to do that (or disciplined enough) so the insurance company will do it for them with cash value insurance, which is overpriced & undervalued. In most cases they leave the family underinsured too boot! That's why the average death claim today will not replace the breadwinner's income, shoot it will barely pay for the funeral! Rates on loans do matter, but the time you pay that rate & the total amount paid is more important. Sure, just today I found a 30-yr mortage loan program for $200,000 (online) with a payment of $875 per month. Sounds great on the surface, right? Here's the fine print: "Rate is variable & subject to change. After the initial fixed rate period, the rate will adjust every 6 months - interest only payment on a 30-year $200,000, 3-year Adjustable Rate Loan @ 5.25% & 80% loan to value with 1.75 points due at closing = $875.00 (After 3-years the interest payment is $1,125.00 & after 10 years the principle/interest payment 1s $1,520.73. The APR is 6.625% & rates could change daily. Actual payments will vary based on individual client situation and current rates.)" So in this scenario, their payments will almost double; my point again, oh but they have a great interwest wate!! I know I'm arguing with a dinosaur but my point is that all this information you give out is great, but no one's really agressively marketing it. All of those other company's term has a conversion clause to convert to whole life or one of their permanent plans, ours does not. We have to keep reserves just as they do. Since they use the client's cash values to cover their hineys, they naturally can sell term cheaper. But they're not even doing that as the majority that's sold across the kitchen table is a bundled product, based on commission & not on truely helping those families. As for mortgages, sure you can add a percentage of your payment each month to pay on principle & have about the same effect as a bi-weekly, but who out there is setting up those loans in order to do that? Our bi-weekly payments we do not charge a fee to do that, & the interest gets calculated on a daily (rather than monthly) basis. No additional money (which most people do not have!) needs to get added. Of course if we "free up" money from other areas that the client's overspending on, then we can apply that or a portion of it to best accelerate the payoff even more. (and also add to an investment program - too!) Once again, I have not had anyone (Brokerage Firms) - call me to do any of this. Maybe if I won the lottery or inherited a ton of money, these company's would call me, but again, that's my point. The industry treats average income families like mushrooms. They feed us a lot B.S. & keep us in the dark where our finances are concerned.

Gary tries to belittle didvidends on a whole life policy because they are techinically categorized as overcharges of premiums. First of all, thats an ancient argument thats as obsolete as whether the single wing is a better football offense or the Knute Rockne box formation. Back in the stone ages there were only two types of cash value policies....participating (meaning they paid dividends) and non-participating, (meaning they didn't). The argument was that since whole life from non-participating policies were usually lower you could buy a greater death benefit for the same premium as a dividend paying policy which in theory offset the advantages of participating in company profits...(e.g..getting a dividend). It was the mutual insurance companies who paid dividends. It was the mutual insurance companies that lobbied to have diveidends declared "an overcharge of premium". That meant they received tremendous tax advantages over other interest bearing investments. The main factor to the consumer is "who gives a rat's behind how dividends are defined?". If each year my cash values and death benefit are both growing at rate much faster than the policy guarantees because of the dividends, what do I care about this debate? The fact is old whole life policies that paid dividends have historically returned to the customer an interest rate roughly equal to municipal bonds....and that ain't bad. In 2006, all that is moot. There are hardly any companies left that pay dividends, there are several types of cash value policies. Unioversal life doesn't pay dividends...it pays interest at competeive rates to municipal bonds.....variable life has growth or loss in the cash values comparable to mutual funds...because in reality thats what the client is investing in inside the policy. Its especially moot for gary to make the argument.....even the companies that pay dividends charge lower term insurance rates than primerica does.

Gary can write 10,000 pages about how no one should ever buy anything but term but that doesn't change the fact primerica charges too much for their term insurance,....and not just "a little more" as he suggests, but a lot more. There is really no argument to make to support buying too expensive term insurance. Its real simple, you get this much death benefit at this much premium guaranteed to stay level for so many years. You die, your beneficiaries get paid, you live they don't. The one thing that matters most in equation is premium. Lets look at it this way....a person can make the argument no one should own anything other than basic transportation. Everyone should own a Dodge Neon because it gets 30+ mpg and will get you where you are going and back again. Now if that person says you should buy one of his Dodge Neons for $16,000 when the dealer down the street has them for $12,000, you'd think he was nuts. Well, gary is saying you should buy that $16,000 Neon. EXAMPLE 44 year old couple, non-smokers they want $500,000 20 year term...guaranteed for all 20 years primerica $1670 another A++ company $1250 Thats $8,400 over 20 years That means that couple could buy $675,000 for the same premium primerica charges for $500,000. What possible argument can someone who only sells term insurance make to justify having $175,000 LESS in death benefit? That he was the one that told them about term insurance??? His advise is worth $175,000 if one of the spouses dies? Its just dumb to make the argument If you truly believe in buy term and invest the difference" then buy lower premium term and have more to invest. Thats common sense. Universal Life might not be for everyone, but bloated term insurance rates are for NO ONE!!!

Gary says you have to consider all these other things when evaluationg a loan other than the interest rate because "time in debt" matters. Thats simply a way of avoiding the fact primerica markets loans that are 1-1.5% higher than others. When you're overpriced you ghbetter come up with a way to market it. Here is the math.....if you use the same payment plan an interest rate that is 1-1.5% lower will result in savings in the $75,000-100,000 range for a middle class homebuyer. Its as simple as that. A bi-weekly payment plan can be duplicated by paying an extra 8.33% of the principle and interest payment each month. The time in debt argument gets blown away in another simple mathematical exercise. If you make the same payments primerica asks for on a higher interest loan to one that is 1.25% lower, your time in debt is reduced from 22 years 4 months with primerica to 18 years six months with someone else. Gary can write several books on this site explaining what Greenspan said, what ABC news said, etc....... but if TIME IN DEBT IS SO CRUCIAL 18 years 6 months versus 22 years 4 months with the EXACT SAME PAYMENT. No amount of company propaganda can change that.

Just a few clarifications; That ABC story may be an exception for now, but in the future we predict it will become the norm! Over 60% of new mortgage loans last year in California were exotic loans. (interest only or ARMS) In the nation as a whole I'm sure it's also very high. These companies know that when she shop for a loan ... we ask, what's my payment & what's the interest rate, right? This particular ARM that was shown on ABC jumped by three - four percentage points ... (not sure exactly - but that's in the ball park) ! The home they showed on the ABC nightly news by Kansas standards I'm sure would be in the $200- $250K range. Alan Greenspan the former head of the Federal Reserve, said (paraphrasing) "This is a time bomb just waiting to explode, and could have grave consequences on the American economy". Of course our government takes forever to do anything constructive until it's too late, then it over-reacts when the chickens have all left the hen house, right? Already I'm hearing ads on the radio, 1,000's of homes that have gotten forclosed on & can get bought at below market value & at very low interwest wates! When was the last time a banker took the time to educate you on the principles we teach. Would "almost never" be a good estimate? The people who close the loan, certainlly do not take the time to do that or provide that information, right or wrong? As for cash value or UL insurance. Have you ever heard of anyone who has cashed in their policy & said, "Man, I have so much money - I don't know what to do with all of it?" In their illustrations there's a clause that states: This illustration (showing the rates of return on the cash values) - is not a contract, please refer to your policy for specifics. How can one do that when we base our purchase(s) on the illustration(s) & do not have the policy to refer to, until after we have made the purchase & the policy gets delivered?? Also on those same illustrations it states (paraphrasing) We have never paid the high rates quoted here in the past , we're not paying them now, & we don't intend to pay them in the future!! But, oh by the way, please make your purchasing decisions based on these illustrations! Another reason we call these UL policies a rip-***... well you know ... Lets say you have a bad wreck, major damage to your car & you come to my body shop to get an estimate. I take a look at the car & write down $3,000 on a plain sheet of paper & say, "this is neither an estimate nor a quarantee." What have you got?? That's exactly how the insurance companies expect us buy their high cost, low value Life insurance. Does all of this make sense?

Hi Gary, Thanks for your detailed and patience reply. I think I see the bigger picture. I don't have any new questions. I just want to add a few comments to your latest reply. I see your logic about the interest rate. When you take time into consideration, the total interest being paid can be less if your interest rate is higher, but requires less time to pay off. This is why you say interest rate is not the only important factor. But at the same time, clients still have the option of going for a loan else where with a lower interest rate and required more SCHEDULED time to pay off. In the mean time, they will sneak in extra payment to reduce the principle whenever they have spare cash lying around. If they do that regularly, they will end up saving more money. It just requires more work on their behalf (and they also must remember to make those extra payments if they want to save more money). The story about your client who borrowed 160K with a very low interest rate is indeed a very surprising one. His monthly payment must be even lower than the interest rate in order for his payment to go balloon after 30 years. Sounds like the loan officer who issued the loan must have made a HUGE mistake when plugging in the values to the formula which calculates the monthly payment given the loan, interest rate, and number of years you plan to pay it off. The example with ABC TV is a very interesting one, but situation like that must be so extreme that it rarely happens. Otherwise, ABC wouldn't spend so much time covering the story to attract viewers. Besides, when a family has an ARMs, wouldn't they still make equal monthly payment (only the principle deducted from each payment would decrease if the mortage rate goes up)? For the monthly payment to sky high from 1700 to 3000 (almost 100% increase), something out of the ordinary must have happened. Despite saying all these, I understand your point about ARM rate may be lower than your rate when we first get the mortage, but you never know what will happen as a few years later on. It's up to the client if they want to take the chance or not. For the UL vs Term debate, I think I understand more about Primerica's philosphy after reading your latest post. Primerica's client based are targeted towards middle to lower income family. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Primerica may assume that clients who fall under this category will not find it feasible to put so much investment to UL to get the most out of it. As a result, Primerica's training may gear towards this assumption and will generally tell people to avoid UL. But at the same time, if a family has UL, agents from Primerica may not be trained well enough to analyze whether UL is indeed the best tool for this family. They will end up hurting, rather than helping, the family if they tell them to replace their UL when UL is in fact the better product given the family's background and current fiancial situation. This is where the controversial topics begin. Regarding the books: thanks for the clarification. You intended to ask potential recruits to check out those books, rather than client or potential clients to follow the advice. This makes much more sense :)

My reference to term rates a little bit higher & mortgage rates a little higher. Maybe I didn't come across to well on that as I was attempting to keep the post as brief as possible. (But when someone asks me "what time is it?", I usually explain how the watch got invented, as I come from an engineering background!) Someone on one of the posts said our rates are higher than every other company's rates for term. The same for our mortgage rates versus other mortgage companies. I mearly said - So what? (to that) There may be mortgagae rates lower than ours but people need to look at the overall total cost of the loan & the time in debt. Rates can get manipulated very easily as banks & mortgage company's brainwash us into believing that "interest rate" is the most important factor. Also home equity lines of credit, sound good but are just revolving credit accounts on your home that works just like credit cards. My wife works in a bank (she also has gotten brainwashed!)& when we got ready to buy a new home, she shopped with her bank & several others & then with Citibank. Citi's good faith estimate came out $54,000 lower in total cost than the next best and will have us out of debt about 10 years sooner. One of them had the lowest rate of the bunch but was still $92,000 higher than Citibank! We had a client who shopped "rates" & found one that was much lower than everywhere else he had looked. He borrowed $160,000 on his dream home & when he showed us the loan papers he had a baloon payment (the 360th month) at the end of the loan (when he's 67 years old) for more than he borrowed! He couldn't believe his banker would do that to him, so he confronted the loan officer. The officer told him that would not happen, so he asked for an amoritization schedule. After waiting for a very long time, they finally presented it to him & his balance on the loan was increasing every month instead of going down! Needless to say we refinanced his home & the rate was higher than before, but we took 9 years & 2 months off of the time he will be in debt, and saved his neck from that balloon payment. Then along comes the exotic loans - ARMs (adjustable rate mortgages) & Interest Only Loans. Interest rates are definitely lower on those! The federal reserve has already made statements about puting a stop to them but the banking lobby says they're a good product & serve a valuable function. For whom? ABC TV recently showed a case of a family that got sold an ARM loan & their payments were $1700 per month. They were told that in 3-years the rate could go up but maybe it could go down, too! Now they get the shocking news that their payments will go up to $3,000 per month & they are forced to sell the home taking a huge loss! Oh but their rate probably was lower that ours, I'm sure ! As for our term rates versus other company's rates. How many companies sell 100% term life insurance? And how much term insurance gets sold by each company compared to their permanent plans (whole life, universal life, variable universal life, modified premium, 10-pay or 20-pay, Endowment (which does not get sold here anymore, but one of my policies "endowed" at age 65. Which means the cash value equals the death benefit)??? They make so much more in premium dollars with the bundled insurances than they do term, they can actually break even on term (therefore their rates may seem lower.) Do the other company's term have a conversion clause to convert to whole life or to a term product? Since all we market - is term ours can only convert to a term product without proving insurability. Also ask: How much does an agent get paid to sell $200,000 of whole life (etc.) versus the same coverage with term insurance? Is there term out there that's cheaper than ours? Could be, I have come across some that is cheaper in maybe the first 10 years (10 year renewable) but then skyrockets the next 10. Over a 20-30 year period I have not gotten beaten by price on term. (There are some group term plans that have beaten me, but if you leave that job - get disabled & can't work, get laid-off you lose the coverage!) As for UL, as you mentioned in most of them they have Plan A or Plan B. One you get only the death benefit & the cash gets surrendered to the company (Plan A) to help them pay the death benefit. The premium stays the same, but the cost of insurance (which is calculated from a mortality table - plus company expenses) goes up. If the cost becomes greater for the insurance - the company withdraws from your forced savings to pay the difference, to keep your premium level. If the cash dwindles to zero you have lost the savings & the policy will lapse, unless you put a huge amount of money back into the contract. Plan B, (or visa-versa depending on how they're listed in the policy) for example, will pay the death benefit plus the cash value, but this requires a much larger premium payment. As a cash surrender value corridor must remain in the policy to get surrendered to the company upon death. If you can afford the higher premium that's what gets sold but if the agent sees you have "limited" dollars he will choose the plan that best suits you, in this scenario - Plan A! I called my old insurance company when I saw an ad in the paper where a agent was opening a new office. (This was 4-5 years ago) So I asked her what was their best plan & she first determined how much I had to spend then she presented me with 3-proposals, all some form of cash value insurance including UL. I asked her about Term so she did a quote on her laptop. It was about 1/3 the cost in premium dollars. But then she asked this question: "Do you want to own or rent your insurance, as term is like renting". How would most trusting souls respond? But I said I would prefer renting in this case. By the way her 10 year rate was competitive to our 10 year term, but in 20 years we blew it out of the water! She never mentioned anything about investing the difference to become self-insured so that in 20 years I won't need as much insurance or maybe none at all by then! Oh yeah didn't mention dividends! In case you ask. They are a partial refund of an overcharge collected. You are not sharing in the profits of the company otherwise those dividends would become taxable & they're not, because it's a partial refund (you've already paid the taxes) of an Over-Charge Collected! Lets say you paid your Gas bill but were offered the opportunity to earn dividends. So you say, sure, why not? They overcharge you every month by $50, but it's not itemized on your statement. You just notice that it seems higher than before, right? At the end of the year they say, oops had a bad year, no dividend, sorry! That's $50 X 12 = $600 you lost but you trust the company right? Now, next year Gas prices went down & they went thru a merger laying off thousands of people & this year you get a dividend check for $350! You go to work & show it off, right? But in actuality it cost you $1200 dollars to get back the $350. That's how dividends work inside of a participating (insurance) policy. Can you begin to see why we call it a rip-off to the consumer. You make your own decisions. (But certainly it's good for the company that sold it, right?) Now this time I hope I've gone into more detail to explain all of this to you. Not to forget the books: Yes, Harry Dent's book has a lot of information about market timing, etc. Which we do not totally agree with. I referred to it as to how much money will flow into the market in the next 10-15 years as the Baby Boomers start to inherit from the Bob Hope generation. Estimates run from $20 Trillion to $40 Trillion dollars. That's $40,000,000,000,000!! The aging baby boomers (80,000,000 of them!) are not going to be buying more cars or jet ski's or computers or bigger homes (well some might) but they're reaching retirement age & want security, right? The majority of this money will get invested somewhere! That's all I meant about his book, was in response to another post where they thought investing in the market was too risky. As for Rich Dad Poor Dad, relates to owning a business versus owning a job. His real dad was told to go get a college degree & get a good job with benefits. His rich dad said to own your business. Robert's solution was realestate ownership & investing. That's one way to make it, but how many info-mercials sell those "plans"? Again, the baby boomers control this economy, right or wrong? Discover their needs & supply their needs & you will become stone wealthy. Ray Crock discovered that with McDonalds, Harley Davidson's booming as those baby boomers want to relive the good old days. Go back to the 60's - early 70's, the boomers were going to college - universities grew by leaps & bounds. Bottom line, baby boomers will need our services & we're positioning ourselves to handle at least 10% of that $40 Trillion dollars. To do that we need outlets with people to run them, that's why we recruit! Any other questions?

My reference to term rates a little bit higher & mortgage rates a little higher. Maybe I didn't come across to well on that as I was attempting to keep the post as brief as possible. (But when someone asks me "what time is it?", I usually explain how the watch got invented, as I come from an engineering background!) Someone on one of the posts said our rates are higher than every other company's rates for term. The same for our mortgage rates versus other mortgage companies. I mearly said - So what? (to that) There may be mortgagae rates lower than ours but people need to look at the overall total cost of the loan & the time in debt. Rates can get manipulated very easily as banks & mortgage company's brainwash us into believing that "interest rate" is the most important factor. Also home equity lines of credit, sound good but are just revolving credit accounts on your home that works just like credit cards. My wife works in a bank (she also has gotten brainwashed!)& when we got ready to buy a new home, she shopped with her bank & several others & then with Citibank. Citi's good faith estimate came out $54,000 lower in total cost than the next best and will have us out of debt about 10 years sooner. One of them had the lowest rate of the bunch but was still $92,000 higher than Citibank! We had a client who shopped "rates" & found one that was much lower than everywhere else he had looked. He borrowed $160,000 on his dream home & when he showed us the loan papers he had a baloon payment (the 360th month) at the end of the loan (when he's 67 years old) for more than he borrowed! He couldn't believe his banker would do that to him, so he confronted the loan officer. The officer told him that would not happen, so he asked for an amoritization schedule. After waiting for a very long time, they finally presented it to him & his balance on the loan was increasing every month instead of going down! Needless to say we refinanced his home & the rate was higher than before, but we took 9 years & 2 months off of the time he will be in debt, and saved his neck from that balloon payment. Then along comes the exotic loans - ARMs (adjustable rate mortgages) & Interest Only Loans. Interest rates are definitely lower on those! The federal reserve has already made statements about puting a stop to them but the banking lobby says they're a good product & serve a valuable function. For whom? ABC TV recently showed a case of a family that got sold an ARM loan & their payments were $1700 per month. They were told that in 3-years the rate could go up but maybe it could go down, too! Now they get the shocking news that their payments will go up to $3,000 per month & they are forced to sell the home taking a huge loss! Oh but their rate probably was lower that ours, I'm sure ! As for our term rates versus other company's rates. How many companies sell 100% term life insurance? And how much term insurance gets sold by each company compared to their permanent plans (whole life, universal life, variable universal life, modified premium, 10-pay or 20-pay, Endowment (which does not get sold here anymore, but one of my policies "endowed" at age 65. Which means the cash value equals the death benefit)??? They make so much more in premium dollars with the bundled insurances than they do term, they can actually break even on term (therefore their rates may seem lower.) Do the other company's term have a conversion clause to convert to whole life or to a term product? Since all we market - is term ours can only convert to a term product without proving insurability. Also ask: How much does an agent get paid to sell $200,000 of whole life (etc.) versus the same coverage with term insurance? Is there term out there that's cheaper than ours? Could be, I have come across some that is cheaper in maybe the first 10 years (10 year renewable) but then skyrockets the next 10. Over a 20-30 year period I have not gotten beaten by price on term. (There are some group term plans that have beaten me, but if you leave that job - get disabled & can't work, get laid-off you lose the coverage!) As for UL, as you mentioned in most of them they have Plan A or Plan B. One you get only the death benefit & the cash gets surrendered to the company (Plan A) to help them pay the death benefit. The premium stays the same, but the cost of insurance (which is calculated from a mortality table - plus company expenses) goes up. If the cost becomes greater for the insurance - the company withdraws from your forced savings to pay the difference, to keep your premium level. If the cash dwindles to zero you have lost the savings & the policy will lapse, unless you put a huge amount of money back into the contract. Plan B, (or visa-versa depending on how they're listed in the policy) for example, will pay the death benefit plus the cash value, but this requires a much larger premium payment. As a cash surrender value corridor must remain in the policy to get surrendered to the company upon death. If you can afford the higher premium that's what gets sold but if the agent sees you have "limited" dollars he will choose the plan that best suits you, in this scenario - Plan A! I called my old insurance company when I saw an ad in the paper where a agent was opening a new office. (This was 4-5 years ago) So I asked her what was their best plan & she first determined how much I had to spend then she presented me with 3-proposals, all some form of cash value insurance including UL. I asked her about Term so she did a quote on her laptop. It was about 1/3 the cost in premium dollars. But then she asked this question: "Do you want to own or rent your insurance, as term is like renting". How would most trusting souls respond? But I said I would prefer renting in this case. By the way her 10 year rate was competitive to our 10 year term, but in 20 years we blew it out of the water! She never mentioned anything about investing the difference to become self-insured so that in 20 years I won't need as much insurance or maybe none at all by then! Oh yeah didn't mention dividends! In case you ask. They are a partial refund of an overcharge collected. You are not sharing in the profits of the company otherwise those dividends would become taxable & they're not, because it's a partial refund (you've already paid the taxes) of an Over-Charge Collected! Lets say you paid your Gas bill but were offered the opportunity to earn dividends. So you say, sure, why not? They overcharge you every month by $50, but it's not itemized on your statement. You just notice that it seems higher than before, right? At the end of the year they say, oops had a bad year, no dividend, sorry! That's $50 X 12 = $600 you lost but you trust the company right? Now, next year Gas prices went down & they went thru a merger laying off thousands of people & this year you get a dividend check for $350! You go to work & show it off, right? But in actuality it cost you $1200 dollars to get back the $350. That's how dividends work inside of a participating (insurance) policy. Can you begin to see why we call it a rip-off to the consumer. You make your own decisions. (But certainly it's good for the company that sold it, right?) Now this time I hope I've gone into more detail to explain all of this to you. Not to forget the books: Yes, Harry Dent's book has a lot of information about market timing, etc. Which we do not totally agree with. I referred to it as to how much money will flow into the market in the next 10-15 years as the Baby Boomers start to inherit from the Bob Hope generation. Estimates run from $20 Trillion to $40 Trillion dollars. That's $40,000,000,000,000!! The aging baby boomers (80,000,000 of them!) are not going to be buying more cars or jet ski's or computers or bigger homes (well some might) but they're reaching retirement age & want security, right? The majority of this money will get invested somewhere! That's all I meant about his book, was in response to another post where they thought investing in the market was too risky. As for Rich Dad Poor Dad, relates to owning a business versus owning a job. His real dad was told to go get a college degree & get a good job with benefits. His rich dad said to own your business. Robert's solution was realestate ownership & investing. That's one way to make it, but how many info-mercials sell those "plans"? Again, the baby boomers control this economy, right or wrong? Discover their needs & supply their needs & you will become stone wealthy. Ray Crock discovered that with McDonalds, Harley Davidson's booming as those baby boomers want to relive the good old days. Go back to the 60's - early 70's, the boomers were going to college - universities grew by leaps & bounds. Bottom line, baby boomers will need our services & we're positioning ourselves to handle at least 10% of that $40 Trillion dollars. To do that we need outlets with people to run them, that's why we recruit! Any other questions?

My reference to term rates a little bit higher & mortgage rates a little higher. Maybe I didn't come across to well on that as I was attempting to keep the post as brief as possible. (But when someone asks me "what time is it?", I usually explain how the watch got invented, as I come from an engineering background!) Someone on one of the posts said our rates are higher than every other company's rates for term. The same for our mortgage rates versus other mortgage companies. I mearly said - So what? (to that) There may be mortgagae rates lower than ours but people need to look at the overall total cost of the loan & the time in debt. Rates can get manipulated very easily as banks & mortgage company's brainwash us into believing that "interest rate" is the most important factor. Also home equity lines of credit, sound good but are just revolving credit accounts on your home that works just like credit cards. My wife works in a bank (she also has gotten brainwashed!)& when we got ready to buy a new home, she shopped with her bank & several others & then with Citibank. Citi's good faith estimate came out $54,000 lower in total cost than the next best and will have us out of debt about 10 years sooner. One of them had the lowest rate of the bunch but was still $92,000 higher than Citibank! We had a client who shopped "rates" & found one that was much lower than everywhere else he had looked. He borrowed $160,000 on his dream home & when he showed us the loan papers he had a baloon payment (the 360th month) at the end of the loan (when he's 67 years old) for more than he borrowed! He couldn't believe his banker would do that to him, so he confronted the loan officer. The officer told him that would not happen, so he asked for an amoritization schedule. After waiting for a very long time, they finally presented it to him & his balance on the loan was increasing every month instead of going down! Needless to say we refinanced his home & the rate was higher than before, but we took 9 years & 2 months off of the time he will be in debt, and saved his neck from that balloon payment. Then along comes the exotic loans - ARMs (adjustable rate mortgages) & Interest Only Loans. Interest rates are definitely lower on those! The federal reserve has already made statements about puting a stop to them but the banking lobby says they're a good product & serve a valuable function. For whom? ABC TV recently showed a case of a family that got sold an ARM loan & their payments were $1700 per month. They were told that in 3-years the rate could go up but maybe it could go down, too! Now they get the shocking news that their payments will go up to $3,000 per month & they are forced to sell the home taking a huge loss! Oh but their rate probably was lower that ours, I'm sure ! As for our term rates versus other company's rates. How many companies sell 100% term life insurance? And how much term insurance gets sold by each company compared to their permanent plans (whole life, universal life, variable universal life, modified premium, 10-pay or 20-pay, Endowment (which does not get sold here anymore, but one of my policies "endowed" at age 65. Which means the cash value equals the death benefit)??? They make so much more in premium dollars with the bundled insurances than they do term, they can actually break even on term (therefore their rates may seem lower.) Do the other company's term have a conversion clause to convert to whole life or to a term product? Since all we market - is term ours can only convert to a term product without proving insurability. Also ask: How much does an agent get paid to sell $200,000 of whole life (etc.) versus the same coverage with term insurance? Is there term out there that's cheaper than ours? Could be, I have come across some that is cheaper in maybe the first 10 years (10 year renewable) but then skyrockets the next 10. Over a 20-30 year period I have not gotten beaten by price on term. (There are some group term plans that have beaten me, but if you leave that job - get disabled & can't work, get laid-off you lose the coverage!) As for UL, as you mentioned in most of them they have Plan A or Plan B. One you get only the death benefit & the cash gets surrendered to the company (Plan A) to help them pay the death benefit. The premium stays the same, but the cost of insurance (which is calculated from a mortality table - plus company expenses) goes up. If the cost becomes greater for the insurance - the company withdraws from your forced savings to pay the difference, to keep your premium level. If the cash dwindles to zero you have lost the savings & the policy will lapse, unless you put a huge amount of money back into the contract. Plan B, (or visa-versa depending on how they're listed in the policy) for example, will pay the death benefit plus the cash value, but this requires a much larger premium payment. As a cash surrender value corridor must remain in the policy to get surrendered to the company upon death. If you can afford the higher premium that's what gets sold but if the agent sees you have "limited" dollars he will choose the plan that best suits you, in this scenario - Plan A! I called my old insurance company when I saw an ad in the paper where a agent was opening a new office. (This was 4-5 years ago) So I asked her what was their best plan & she first determined how much I had to spend then she presented me with 3-proposals, all some form of cash value insurance including UL. I asked her about Term so she did a quote on her laptop. It was about 1/3 the cost in premium dollars. But then she asked this question: "Do you want to own or rent your insurance, as term is like renting". How would most trusting souls respond? But I said I would prefer renting in this case. By the way her 10 year rate was competitive to our 10 year term, but in 20 years we blew it out of the water! She never mentioned anything about investing the difference to become self-insured so that in 20 years I won't need as much insurance or maybe none at all by then! Oh yeah didn't mention dividends! In case you ask. They are a partial refund of an overcharge collected. You are not sharing in the profits of the company otherwise those dividends would become taxable & they're not, because it's a partial refund (you've already paid the taxes) of an Over-Charge Collected! Lets say you paid your Gas bill but were offered the opportunity to earn dividends. So you say, sure, why not? They overcharge you every month by $50, but it's not itemized on your statement. You just notice that it seems higher than before, right? At the end of the year they say, oops had a bad year, no dividend, sorry! That's $50 X 12 = $600 you lost but you trust the company right? Now, next year Gas prices went down & they went thru a merger laying off thousands of people & this year you get a dividend check for $350! You go to work & show it off, right? But in actuality it cost you $1200 dollars to get back the $350. That's how dividends work inside of a participating (insurance) policy. Can you begin to see why we call it a rip-off to the consumer. You make your own decisions. (But certainly it's good for the company that sold it, right?) Now this time I hope I've gone into more detail to explain all of this to you. Not to forget the books: Yes, Harry Dent's book has a lot of information about market timing, etc. Which we do not totally agree with. I referred to it as to how much money will flow into the market in the next 10-15 years as the Baby Boomers start to inherit from the Bob Hope generation. Estimates run from $20 Trillion to $40 Trillion dollars. That's $40,000,000,000,000!! The aging baby boomers (80,000,000 of them!) are not going to be buying more cars or jet ski's or computers or bigger homes (well some might) but they're reaching retirement age & want security, right? The majority of this money will get invested somewhere! That's all I meant about his book, was in response to another post where they thought investing in the market was too risky. As for Rich Dad Poor Dad, relates to owning a business versus owning a job. His real dad was told to go get a college degree & get a good job with benefits. His rich dad said to own your business. Robert's solution was realestate ownership & investing. That's one way to make it, but how many info-mercials sell those "plans"? Again, the baby boomers control this economy, right or wrong? Discover their needs & supply their needs & you will become stone wealthy. Ray Crock discovered that with McDonalds, Harley Davidson's booming as those baby boomers want to relive the good old days. Go back to the 60's - early 70's, the boomers were going to college - universities grew by leaps & bounds. Bottom line, baby boomers will need our services & we're positioning ourselves to handle at least 10% of that $40 Trillion dollars. To do that we need outlets with people to run them, that's why we recruit! Any other questions?

My reference to term rates a little bit higher & mortgage rates a little higher. Maybe I didn't come across to well on that as I was attempting to keep the post as brief as possible. (But when someone asks me "what time is it?", I usually explain how the watch got invented, as I come from an engineering background!) Someone on one of the posts said our rates are higher than every other company's rates for term. The same for our mortgage rates versus other mortgage companies. I mearly said - So what? (to that) There may be mortgagae rates lower than ours but people need to look at the overall total cost of the loan & the time in debt. Rates can get manipulated very easily as banks & mortgage company's brainwash us into believing that "interest rate" is the most important factor. Also home equity lines of credit, sound good but are just revolving credit accounts on your home that works just like credit cards. My wife works in a bank (she also has gotten brainwashed!)& when we got ready to buy a new home, she shopped with her bank & several others & then with Citibank. Citi's good faith estimate came out $54,000 lower in total cost than the next best and will have us out of debt about 10 years sooner. One of them had the lowest rate of the bunch but was still $92,000 higher than Citibank! We had a client who shopped "rates" & found one that was much lower than everywhere else he had looked. He borrowed $160,000 on his dream home & when he showed us the loan papers he had a baloon payment (the 360th month) at the end of the loan (when he's 67 years old) for more than he borrowed! He couldn't believe his banker would do that to him, so he confronted the loan officer. The officer told him that would not happen, so he asked for an amoritization schedule. After waiting for a very long time, they finally presented it to him & his balance on the loan was increasing every month instead of going down! Needless to say we refinanced his home & the rate was higher than before, but we took 9 years & 2 months off of the time he will be in debt, and saved his neck from that balloon payment. Then along comes the exotic loans - ARMs (adjustable rate mortgages) & Interest Only Loans. Interest rates are definitely lower on those! The federal reserve has already made statements about puting a stop to them but the banking lobby says they're a good product & serve a valuable function. For whom? ABC TV recently showed a case of a family that got sold an ARM loan & their payments were $1700 per month. They were told that in 3-years the rate could go up but maybe it could go down, too! Now they get the shocking news that their payments will go up to $3,000 per month & they are forced to sell the home taking a huge loss! Oh but their rate probably was lower that ours, I'm sure ! As for our term rates versus other company's rates. How many companies sell 100% term life insurance? And how much term insurance gets sold by each company compared to their permanent plans (whole life, universal life, variable universal life, modified premium, 10-pay or 20-pay, Endowment (which does not get sold here anymore, but one of my policies "endowed" at age 65. Which means the cash value equals the death benefit)??? They make so much more in premium dollars with the bundled insurances than they do term, they can actually break even on term (therefore their rates may seem lower.) Do the other company's term have a conversion clause to convert to whole life or to a term product? Since all we market - is term ours can only convert to a term product without proving insurability. Also ask: How much does an agent get paid to sell $200,000 of whole life (etc.) versus the same coverage with term insurance? Is there term out there that's cheaper than ours? Could be, I have come across some that is cheaper in maybe the first 10 years (10 year renewable) but then skyrockets the next 10. Over a 20-30 year period I have not gotten beaten by price on term. (There are some group term plans that have beaten me, but if you leave that job - get disabled & can't work, get laid-off you lose the coverage!) As for UL, as you mentioned in most of them they have Plan A or Plan B. One you get only the death benefit & the cash gets surrendered to the company (Plan A) to help them pay the death benefit. The premium stays the same, but the cost of insurance (which is calculated from a mortality table - plus company expenses) goes up. If the cost becomes greater for the insurance - the company withdraws from your forced savings to pay the difference, to keep your premium level. If the cash dwindles to zero you have lost the savings & the policy will lapse, unless you put a huge amount of money back into the contract. Plan B, (or visa-versa depending on how they're listed in the policy) for example, will pay the death benefit plus the cash value, but this requires a much larger premium payment. As a cash surrender value corridor must remain in the policy to get surrendered to the company upon death. If you can afford the higher premium that's what gets sold but if the agent sees you have "limited" dollars he will choose the plan that best suits you, in this scenario - Plan A! I called my old insurance company when I saw an ad in the paper where a agent was opening a new office. (This was 4-5 years ago) So I asked her what was their best plan & she first determined how much I had to spend then she presented me with 3-proposals, all some form of cash value insurance including UL. I asked her about Term so she did a quote on her laptop. It was about 1/3 the cost in premium dollars. But then she asked this question: "Do you want to own or rent your insurance, as term is like renting". How would most trusting souls respond? But I said I would prefer renting in this case. By the way her 10 year rate was competitive to our 10 year term, but in 20 years we blew it out of the water! She never mentioned anything about investing the difference to become self-insured so that in 20 years I won't need as much insurance or maybe none at all by then! Oh yeah didn't mention dividends! In case you ask. They are a partial refund of an overcharge collected. You are not sharing in the profits of the company otherwise those dividends would become taxable & they're not, because it's a partial refund (you've already paid the taxes) of an Over-Charge Collected! Lets say you paid your Gas bill but were offered the opportunity to earn dividends. So you say, sure, why not? They overcharge you every month by $50, but it's not itemized on your statement. You just notice that it seems higher than before, right? At the end of the year they say, oops had a bad year, no dividend, sorry! That's $50 X 12 = $600 you lost but you trust the company right? Now, next year Gas prices went down & they went thru a merger laying off thousands of people & this year you get a dividend check for $350! You go to work & show it off, right? But in actuality it cost you $1200 dollars to get back the $350. That's how dividends work inside of a participating (insurance) policy. Can you begin to see why we call it a rip-off to the consumer. You make your own decisions. (But certainly it's good for the company that sold it, right?) Now this time I hope I've gone into more detail to explain all of this to you. Not to forget the books: Yes, Harry Dent's book has a lot of information about market timing, etc. Which we do not totally agree with. I referred to it as to how much money will flow into the market in the next 10-15 years as the Baby Boomers start to inherit from the Bob Hope generation. Estimates run from $20 Trillion to $40 Trillion dollars. That's $40,000,000,000,000!! The aging baby boomers (80,000,000 of them!) are not going to be buying more cars or jet ski's or computers or bigger homes (well some might) but they're reaching retirement age & want security, right? The majority of this money will get invested somewhere! That's all I meant about his book, was in response to another post where they thought investing in the market was too risky. As for Rich Dad Poor Dad, relates to owning a business versus owning a job. His real dad was told to go get a college degree & get a good job with benefits. His rich dad said to own your business. Robert's solution was realestate ownership & investing. That's one way to make it, but how many info-mercials sell those "plans"? Again, the baby boomers control this economy, right or wrong? Discover their needs & supply their needs & you will become stone wealthy. Ray Crock discovered that with McDonalds, Harley Davidson's booming as those baby boomers want to relive the good old days. Go back to the 60's - early 70's, the boomers were going to college - universities grew by leaps & bounds. Bottom line, baby boomers will need our services & we're positioning ourselves to handle at least 10% of that $40 Trillion dollars. To do that we need outlets with people to run them, that's why we recruit! Any other questions?

Gary asks how is universal life unbundled? It was considered unbundled then because the policy had three components, one of which was the investment component which was calculated independently of the other two, which are the fixed monthly expense which is the same regardless of policy size and the true insurance expenses which do vary by policy size. Any amount paid in over those two goes into investment and the client could vary the amount that was put in. Many small businessmen use a UL poliocy as a temporary repository for excess funds. They can pour the money into a UL when times are good, let it grow at a competetive to banks % rate, then pull it out when times are tough with no tax consequences. Gary says "when you take out a cash value loan doesn't it reduce the death benefit?" Yes gary, and when you take money out of your mutual fund doesn't it reduce the amount of cash on hand your family still would have in the account? Gary asks about taking out so much the policy will expire....but he says on a whole life. Once again gary, it appears you can't tell the difference between whole life and universal life. Pretty strange for a 15 year veteran in this business. You can take a maximum cash value loan on a WHOLE LIFE policy and as long as you continue to pay the premiums it won't expire. If you do it on a universal life it can expire if there isn't enough money in the investment account to meet the monthly fixed expense charge and the current mortality charges. Gary asks if whole life can be IRA qualified. No, but neither can a movie ticket. The answer is as relevant to the subject as the question. Its a dumb question. Gary says something about "who wants to lose money in an insurance policy to get a writeoff". What in the world are you talking about? Once again its a non-sequiter. It has no bearing to the discussion. Gary asks "whoever said I have so much money in a whole life policy I don't know what to do with it?". I can't give you a name but I have a client with nearly $one million in the cash values of a whole life policy, sold when the guaranteed rate was 6% (he is quite pleased with 6%). He takes money out each year and gifts it to his grandkids with no tax consequences. Its an extreme case for sure but you asked, so I told you. It was also a Single Premium Whole Life policy under the old laws. Gary talks about the projections in his "whole life policy" and actual returns and what the guarantee is (2.25%) Okay, Ive never called you a liar before however, to begin with I had another primerican on another board tell me the exact same story with the exact same numbers. Secondly, in 1986 you couldn't find a policy sold anywhere that had guarantees under 3.5% let alone 2.25%. The 6% guarantee policy I sold was in 1987. You can now, but no way in hell in 1986 could you. Also, the way you have laid this story out you're talking about UNIVERSAL LIFE......NOT WHOLE LIFE. Am I to believe after 15 years in the biz you still don't know the difference between the two? You said the policy was using a 1958 mortality table not a 1980 mortality table. If the policy had been sold to you 20 years ago as you claim, it absolutely would have had a NINETEEN EIGHTY MORTALITY TABLE. It was sold after 1980!!! I have these answers at my fingertips having dealt with the exact same fairy tale and the exact same set of numbers not more than two years ago from a primerican in Orange County, california. More on him later. Once again, I've never called you a liar before however you said you were putting $125 a month into an IRA and now its worth about $300,000. What mutual fund was it? It would have had to have earned a little over EIGHTEEN PERCENT for TWENTY years to have $300,000 in accumulation now. You want to tell the world what mutual fund did 18+% from 1986 to present???? I really want to know what mutual fund in 2006 has a 20 year return of 18% AFTER the SECOND BIGGEST CRASH IN STOCK MARKET HISTORY? Most mutual funds dropped at least 50%, a large portion dropped 70%, and a few dropped 90%. However, only gary knows of one that was immune to it. How come no one else knows who this is? Gary says 'So what if our term insurance is a little higher and our loans costs more? He then says that by educating people primerica shows them the way. Once again...condensed version; 44 year old healthy couple They want $500,000 20 year term $250,000 loan. Primerica would take $97,000....thats NINETY SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS in extra insurance premium and extra interest over the life of the loan. Primerica would take 46 months longer to get them out of debt. What in the world does primerica do for someone that is worth NINETY SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS?????? A free Financial Needs Analysis maybe???? Seems like if its gonna cost NINETY SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS MORE maybe it ain't so free. By the way....free Financial Needs Analysis is almost as valuable to a client as a free roll of paper towels. FNAs are a dime a dozen, every company has a version of it...and they will ALL DO IT FREE. What REAL financial planners charge for and a Financial Needs Analysis are as far different as a Doctoral Thesis from Harvard and a high school term paper. Gary says primerica doesn't employ high pressure???? Thats not what poster after poster on this message board has said. Its the same thing on every message board I have been on. Gary wraps up by taklking about helping families. I say he is exploiting families. If he and his sales team are out there relying on personal relationships to get an average couple to pay NINETY SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS MORE in insurance premiums and interest, that ain't hel;ping, that is exploiting.....and exploiting is what pruimerica does really really well!. I will never take the position that life insurance is the world's greatest investment and everyone should invest in it and in whole life only. You have taken the position that no one should ever own whole life, universal life or variable life. I say each person's individual circumstance determines what their investment portfolio should look like and what kind of insurance they should buy. When I meet a client for the first time I don't walk in with a canned sales pitch (aka Financial Needs Analysis). I literally walk in with an empty notepad and what I do is listen...not deliver some corporate designed propaganda.

Hi Gary, How can you say "So what if our term rates are a little higher than other companies or that our mortgage interest rates may be a little higher"? Aren't you contradicting what Primerica is teaching its clients? Your definition of "A little higher " will be a big difference on a long term. Afterall, if you can save $20 a month on lower insurance premium and mortage rate and then invest the money on a mutual fund that gives a rate of return of 12% a year, over a 35 year basis (the length of a term policy), that would be a lot of money. It is what my friend's trainer told me when she first joined Primerica and they did a kichen table presentation at my home. How can you neglect the "little price difference"? Besides, isn't cheaper premium the primary reason why you recommand your clients to go term instead of Universal or Whole?? You probably will understand why I have doubts about your company's term/UL debate if tell you more about my encounter with Primerica. I will tell it to avoid any misunderstandings. I do support my friend who works there. When she first joined Primerica, I was her first friend to buy mutual funds from her. I also believe that her trainer is a very nice person, but being nice doesn't mean he will give great financial advise. when they did the kitchen presentation to me, I told them that I currently have UL. The trainer told me right away that UL is always a ripoff, and it's the worst form of investment. He did recommand me to switched to term - not Primerica term, but the term insurance offered by the same company that sold my UL. In that sense, I know my friend's trainer is not a pushy person who wants me to only buy Primerica product. But I had doubts when his advise is so biased. I didn't feel comfortable listening to a person who keeps accusing that my UL is garbage, instead of patiently explaining the advantages and disadvantages between term and UL, and then explain why in my case, term is the better product (he did tell me the advantages of term over UL, but he didn't tell me the advantages of each product). After listening to her trainer, I started asking around to find out the advantages of UL, and I found that the advantages include premium never goes up, and the insurance never expires. If I'm sure that I won't need to withdraw money before my surrender charges goes to 0, UL can be a good investment. Investing in UL at a younge age is acutally not a bad idea. Also, I found that it's not true that with UL, you get to keep either one or the other. There are policies where if you die, you will get both your insurance and your investment back. I'm not sure about the laws in US, but in Canada, the investment that we get back after our death will be passed on to our benificiers tax free. That is a lot of money saved. I related this back to my friend. My friend at first seems a bit annoyed when I challenged her, but when she brought this up to her trainer, her trainer, who is a CFP, said that there will be times when UL is a better tool. This will be the case for Estate Planning. And Yes. A Primerica agent said that. My doubts with this company didn't decrease. Why would you tell me at the Kichen presentation that UL is always a ripoff and term is always better than UL, but now you're telling me that for estate planning, UL is a better tool? Why don't you give me your advice after you carefully examine my financial needs first instead of trashing my current investment right away without even knowing what my goals are? The biasness of his original advise has prevented me from trusting him or Primerica. I do understand there are good people at Primerica, but when I see the attitude of some of the agents who post on this site (not implying you. As a matter of fact, eventhough I was a harsh to Julie in another post, I don't think she's a bad person overall - but there things that she can work on. I am, however, very shocked by certain things that an RVP from Primerica would say in ripoffreport.com), I start to have more and more questions about this company. Just as I said in another post, it's the behaviour of your own agents, and not things say by the naysayers, that can ruin the reputation of your company, Some separate questions unrelated to the UL/term debate before I go. Maybe you can clarify on this, since it relates to information from another one of your post? In your other post when you recommand books that other should check out, you mentioned Roaring 2000's by Harry Dent. Why would you ask another person to check out that book? In his book, Harry Dent talked about the model that he has developed based on past economical and financial market history and also demographics. All the advice that he gives in the books is based on his model in which he predicts when the market will go up and go down. To use the advice on the book, one will need to time the market. Primerica's focus is buy term, invest the diffence and hold the investment for long term. What would your clients think to see that the investment advice that you give them contradicts Harry Dent's advise when you are the one who asked people to check out the book? Similarly, you recommanded people to check out Rich Dad Poor Dad. That book is very easy to read and also very interesting, which is why the book is a best seller and Robert Kyosaski has made lots of money by selling his book. But would you really recommand his advice to your clients? Forget about the controverisal that surrounds that author. Most of the Rich Dad's Series book focus on real estate investments. In his book Rich Dad's Prophecy, Robert Kyosaki even said he doesn't use the buy and hold strategy. Is Primerica's clients (mainly middle class family) the main target audience of Rich Dad's real estate investment advice? BTW, as you can probably tell, I'm not in the financial or investment field. I'm just a client who shows concern with my financial situation, so I don't gain/lose anything for praising/critizing Primerica.

Whole life cash values belong to the insurance company & not the owner of the policy. Right or wrong? If universal life "unbundles" the insurance from the savings element as you stated, then why can't it get IRA qualified? If you take out the cash value, doesn't it reduce the death benefit or even cause the policy to lapse if the withdrawl (or loan as the case may be) does not get redeposited or repaid?? Any legitamate consumerist reccommends "buy term & invest the difference", outside of an insurance policy. If someone wants to lose money in order to have a tax write off, then I guess whole life (or any other bundled policy) may be the way to go! How many people can afford to lose money? When was the last time you heard of someone surrending their whole life policy (the only way to get the cash values without borrowing against them) and said, "man I have so much money ... I don't know what to do with all of it?!?" My very first whole life policy was sold to my parents as a college savings plan, for me. I was there at the table when the agent sold my Dad his policy along a separate one on me. None on Mom as it was not even presented. The agent's "projections" showed over $6,000 at age 19. But at age 35 when someone from Primerica came to my house, he showed me that I had less than $2,000 - hardly enough for one semester of barber college, wouldn't you agree? (actually the amount in that one policy came to $1749.00!) About 5 years after I got married, I was in a fender bender wreck one winter & if I had not seen the persom sliding on the ice when I did & sped up, I could have been seriously injured or even killed. I still got hit, but did not get hurt. A bit shaken up ... I remembered my life insurance policy & got it out. There was a clause where I could buy more insurance without proving insurability on my birthday every so many years. I called the agent, my Dad's old Army buddy & he came over & sold me more cash value insurance on me, added some for my wife & son, but never recontacted me when our daughter got born. (he had retired by then!) All of it was cash value, no term. He left me over premiumed & still underinsured. I had asked him about term but he discouraged me as the premium goes up and as he explained it ... with term I was renting & with whole life I was building equity ... like home ownership. By the way that new policy, I found out thankx to PFS, did not build any cash values for 5 years! The agent told me to keep the old one as it was a very valuable asset. The mortality rates on that original one were based on 1958 not 1980 mortality rates. People live longer now than then, so naturally my insurance cost per thousand was way over inflated. Anyway you put it I had gotten ripped off because I trusted this life insurance professional. Even when PFS proposed a 20 year term program, I can't believe I called my old agent to see if he could beat those rates. Anyway, "Charley" had retired but he was happy to refer me to another agent, who said he could beat those term rates & would work up a quote for me. After 3-weeks he did not call me back, so I went with PFS (the old ALW) as they had taken the time to educate me & I got 6-times more protection for the same premium. PFS also showed me how to reduce my taxes & put an additional $125 per month back into my take home pay & how to invest that in a mutual fund - registered as a traditional IRA, which I did not have a clue about. Based on past performances as an indicator, not future guarantees or projections that made a $300,000 difference in my life at retirement age of 67. Those were conservative estimates & now 22 years later that original account is almost to that figure & I have 10 more years for it to compound! So what if our term rates are a little higher than other companies or that our mortgage interest rates may be a little higher? No one out there is helping people with a written game plan (for free) to do that. Yes, the FNA's free, without a monetary charge. If they chose to not move forward, that FNA is still free & left with them. We do not pressure them in any way... to do that would be ridiculous ... as we rely on referrals to avoid cold market calling. That high pressure stuff would be totally counter productive, right? (And certainly not in our best interests.) People who choose not to do business with us ... do so for 3 reasons: 1. They don't believe us (thanks to people like you) - 2. we've said something to offend them - and 3. (sadly) there's a few people who just do not want any help whatsoever or are too embarassed to share their personal stuff. I know I was embarrassed at first, but I was able to swallow my pride & ask for help. I'm so thankful that I did & also that I joined this company to help others the way I received help. I can help 8-10 families a month & everyday go out & sell (basically starting over every day) or I can build a team of 10 associates that I have trained and we can help 80 - 100 families a month! Why shouldn't I get compensated? I have helped the company grow & have created more production than I could do on my own & I have duplicated myself. Sure I have to go thru a lot of quitters to find the winners ... big deal! Everyone gets the same chance the company gave me ... & now it's a whole lot better. When I started we had no reimbursement after training! So you all can keep on whining, crying, moaning & complaining about why we're so bad ... while we just keep on helping families!

Whole life cash values belong to the insurance company & not the owner of the policy. Right or wrong? If universal life "unbundles" the insurance from the savings element as you stated, then why can't it get IRA qualified? If you take out the cash value, doesn't it reduce the death benefit or even cause the policy to lapse if the withdrawl (or loan as the case may be) does not get redeposited or repaid?? Any legitamate consumerist reccommends "buy term & invest the difference", outside of an insurance policy. If someone wants to lose money in order to have a tax write off, then I guess whole life (or any other bundled policy) may be the way to go! How many people can afford to lose money? When was the last time you heard of someone surrending their whole life policy (the only way to get the cash values without borrowing against them) and said, "man I have so much money ... I don't know what to do with all of it?!?" My very first whole life policy was sold to my parents as a college savings plan, for me. I was there at the table when the agent sold my Dad his policy along a separate one on me. None on Mom as it was not even presented. The agent's "projections" showed over $6,000 at age 19. But at age 35 when someone from Primerica came to my house, he showed me that I had less than $2,000 - hardly enough for one semester of barber college, wouldn't you agree? (actually the amount in that one policy came to $1749.00!) About 5 years after I got married, I was in a fender bender wreck one winter & if I had not seen the persom sliding on the ice when I did & sped up, I could have been seriously injured or even killed. I still got hit, but did not get hurt. A bit shaken up ... I remembered my life insurance policy & got it out. There was a clause where I could buy more insurance without proving insurability on my birthday every so many years. I called the agent, my Dad's old Army buddy & he came over & sold me more cash value insurance on me, added some for my wife & son, but never recontacted me when our daughter got born. (he had retired by then!) All of it was cash value, no term. He left me over premiumed & still underinsured. I had asked him about term but he discouraged me as the premium goes up and as he explained it ... with term I was renting & with whole life I was building equity ... like home ownership. By the way that new policy, I found out thankx to PFS, did not build any cash values for 5 years! The agent told me to keep the old one as it was a very valuable asset. The mortality rates on that original one were based on 1958 not 1980 mortality rates. People live longer now than then, so naturally my insurance cost per thousand was way over inflated. Anyway you put it I had gotten ripped off because I trusted this life insurance professional. Even when PFS proposed a 20 year term program, I can't believe I called my old agent to see if he could beat those rates. Anyway, "Charley" had retired but he was happy to refer me to another agent, who said he could beat those term rates & would work up a quote for me. After 3-weeks he did not call me back, so I went with PFS (the old ALW) as they had taken the time to educate me & I got 6-times more protection for the same premium. PFS also showed me how to reduce my taxes & put an additional $125 per month back into my take home pay & how to invest that in a mutual fund - registered as a traditional IRA, which I did not have a clue about. Based on past performances as an indicator, not future guarantees or projections that made a $300,000 difference in my life at retirement age of 67. Those were conservative estimates & now 22 years later that original account is almost to that figure & I have 10 more years for it to compound! So what if our term rates are a little higher than other companies or that our mortgage interest rates may be a little higher? No one out there is helping people with a written game plan (for free) to do that. Yes, the FNA's free, without a monetary charge. If they chose to not move forward, that FNA is still free & left with them. We do not pressure them in any way... to do that would be ridiculous ... as we rely on referrals to avoid cold market calling. That high pressure stuff would be totally counter productive, right? (And certainly not in our best interests.) People who choose not to do business with us ... do so for 3 reasons: 1. They don't believe us (thanks to people like you) - 2. we've said something to offend them - and 3. (sadly) there's a few people who just do not want any help whatsoever or are too embarassed to share their personal stuff. I know I was embarrassed at first, but I was able to swallow my pride & ask for help. I'm so thankful that I did & also that I joined this company to help others the way I received help. I can help 8-10 families a month & everyday go out & sell (basically starting over every day) or I can build a team of 10 associates that I have trained and we can help 80 - 100 families a month! Why shouldn't I get compensated? I have helped the company grow & have created more production than I could do on my own & I have duplicated myself. Sure I have to go thru a lot of quitters to find the winners ... big deal! Everyone gets the same chance the company gave me ... & now it's a whole lot better. When I started we had no reimbursement after training! So you all can keep on whining, crying, moaning & complaining about why we're so bad ... while we just keep on helping families!

Whole life cash values belong to the insurance company & not the owner of the policy. Right or wrong? If universal life "unbundles" the insurance from the savings element as you stated, then why can't it get IRA qualified? If you take out the cash value, doesn't it reduce the death benefit or even cause the policy to lapse if the withdrawl (or loan as the case may be) does not get redeposited or repaid?? Any legitamate consumerist reccommends "buy term & invest the difference", outside of an insurance policy. If someone wants to lose money in order to have a tax write off, then I guess whole life (or any other bundled policy) may be the way to go! How many people can afford to lose money? When was the last time you heard of someone surrending their whole life policy (the only way to get the cash values without borrowing against them) and said, "man I have so much money ... I don't know what to do with all of it?!?" My very first whole life policy was sold to my parents as a college savings plan, for me. I was there at the table when the agent sold my Dad his policy along a separate one on me. None on Mom as it was not even presented. The agent's "projections" showed over $6,000 at age 19. But at age 35 when someone from Primerica came to my house, he showed me that I had less than $2,000 - hardly enough for one semester of barber college, wouldn't you agree? (actually the amount in that one policy came to $1749.00!) About 5 years after I got married, I was in a fender bender wreck one winter & if I had not seen the persom sliding on the ice when I did & sped up, I could have been seriously injured or even killed. I still got hit, but did not get hurt. A bit shaken up ... I remembered my life insurance policy & got it out. There was a clause where I could buy more insurance without proving insurability on my birthday every so many years. I called the agent, my Dad's old Army buddy & he came over & sold me more cash value insurance on me, added some for my wife & son, but never recontacted me when our daughter got born. (he had retired by then!) All of it was cash value, no term. He left me over premiumed & still underinsured. I had asked him about term but he discouraged me as the premium goes up and as he explained it ... with term I was renting & with whole life I was building equity ... like home ownership. By the way that new policy, I found out thankx to PFS, did not build any cash values for 5 years! The agent told me to keep the old one as it was a very valuable asset. The mortality rates on that original one were based on 1958 not 1980 mortality rates. People live longer now than then, so naturally my insurance cost per thousand was way over inflated. Anyway you put it I had gotten ripped off because I trusted this life insurance professional. Even when PFS proposed a 20 year term program, I can't believe I called my old agent to see if he could beat those rates. Anyway, "Charley" had retired but he was happy to refer me to another agent, who said he could beat those term rates & would work up a quote for me. After 3-weeks he did not call me back, so I went with PFS (the old ALW) as they had taken the time to educate me & I got 6-times more protection for the same premium. PFS also showed me how to reduce my taxes & put an additional $125 per month back into my take home pay & how to invest that in a mutual fund - registered as a traditional IRA, which I did not have a clue about. Based on past performances as an indicator, not future guarantees or projections that made a $300,000 difference in my life at retirement age of 67. Those were conservative estimates & now 22 years later that original account is almost to that figure & I have 10 more years for it to compound! So what if our term rates are a little higher than other companies or that our mortgage interest rates may be a little higher? No one out there is helping people with a written game plan (for free) to do that. Yes, the FNA's free, without a monetary charge. If they chose to not move forward, that FNA is still free & left with them. We do not pressure them in any way... to do that would be ridiculous ... as we rely on referrals to avoid cold market calling. That high pressure stuff would be totally counter productive, right? (And certainly not in our best interests.) People who choose not to do business with us ... do so for 3 reasons: 1. They don't believe us (thanks to people like you) - 2. we've said something to offend them - and 3. (sadly) there's a few people who just do not want any help whatsoever or are too embarassed to share their personal stuff. I know I was embarrassed at first, but I was able to swallow my pride & ask for help. I'm so thankful that I did & also that I joined this company to help others the way I received help. I can help 8-10 families a month & everyday go out & sell (basically starting over every day) or I can build a team of 10 associates that I have trained and we can help 80 - 100 families a month! Why shouldn't I get compensated? I have helped the company grow & have created more production than I could do on my own & I have duplicated myself. Sure I have to go thru a lot of quitters to find the winners ... big deal! Everyone gets the same chance the company gave me ... & now it's a whole lot better. When I started we had no reimbursement after training! So you all can keep on whining, crying, moaning & complaining about why we're so bad ... while we just keep on helping families!

Whole life cash values belong to the insurance company & not the owner of the policy. Right or wrong? If universal life "unbundles" the insurance from the savings element as you stated, then why can't it get IRA qualified? If you take out the cash value, doesn't it reduce the death benefit or even cause the policy to lapse if the withdrawl (or loan as the case may be) does not get redeposited or repaid?? Any legitamate consumerist reccommends "buy term & invest the difference", outside of an insurance policy. If someone wants to lose money in order to have a tax write off, then I guess whole life (or any other bundled policy) may be the way to go! How many people can afford to lose money? When was the last time you heard of someone surrending their whole life policy (the only way to get the cash values without borrowing against them) and said, "man I have so much money ... I don't know what to do with all of it?!?" My very first whole life policy was sold to my parents as a college savings plan, for me. I was there at the table when the agent sold my Dad his policy along a separate one on me. None on Mom as it was not even presented. The agent's "projections" showed over $6,000 at age 19. But at age 35 when someone from Primerica came to my house, he showed me that I had less than $2,000 - hardly enough for one semester of barber college, wouldn't you agree? (actually the amount in that one policy came to $1749.00!) About 5 years after I got married, I was in a fender bender wreck one winter & if I had not seen the persom sliding on the ice when I did & sped up, I could have been seriously injured or even killed. I still got hit, but did not get hurt. A bit shaken up ... I remembered my life insurance policy & got it out. There was a clause where I could buy more insurance without proving insurability on my birthday every so many years. I called the agent, my Dad's old Army buddy & he came over & sold me more cash value insurance on me, added some for my wife & son, but never recontacted me when our daughter got born. (he had retired by then!) All of it was cash value, no term. He left me over premiumed & still underinsured. I had asked him about term but he discouraged me as the premium goes up and as he explained it ... with term I was renting & with whole life I was building equity ... like home ownership. By the way that new policy, I found out thankx to PFS, did not build any cash values for 5 years! The agent told me to keep the old one as it was a very valuable asset. The mortality rates on that original one were based on 1958 not 1980 mortality rates. People live longer now than then, so naturally my insurance cost per thousand was way over inflated. Anyway you put it I had gotten ripped off because I trusted this life insurance professional. Even when PFS proposed a 20 year term program, I can't believe I called my old agent to see if he could beat those rates. Anyway, "Charley" had retired but he was happy to refer me to another agent, who said he could beat those term rates & would work up a quote for me. After 3-weeks he did not call me back, so I went with PFS (the old ALW) as they had taken the time to educate me & I got 6-times more protection for the same premium. PFS also showed me how to reduce my taxes & put an additional $125 per month back into my take home pay & how to invest that in a mutual fund - registered as a traditional IRA, which I did not have a clue about. Based on past performances as an indicator, not future guarantees or projections that made a $300,000 difference in my life at retirement age of 67. Those were conservative estimates & now 22 years later that original account is almost to that figure & I have 10 more years for it to compound! So what if our term rates are a little higher than other companies or that our mortgage interest rates may be a little higher? No one out there is helping people with a written game plan (for free) to do that. Yes, the FNA's free, without a monetary charge. If they chose to not move forward, that FNA is still free & left with them. We do not pressure them in any way... to do that would be ridiculous ... as we rely on referrals to avoid cold market calling. That high pressure stuff would be totally counter productive, right? (And certainly not in our best interests.) People who choose not to do business with us ... do so for 3 reasons: 1. They don't believe us (thanks to people like you) - 2. we've said something to offend them - and 3. (sadly) there's a few people who just do not want any help whatsoever or are too embarassed to share their personal stuff. I know I was embarrassed at first, but I was able to swallow my pride & ask for help. I'm so thankful that I did & also that I joined this company to help others the way I received help. I can help 8-10 families a month & everyday go out & sell (basically starting over every day) or I can build a team of 10 associates that I have trained and we can help 80 - 100 families a month! Why shouldn't I get compensated? I have helped the company grow & have created more production than I could do on my own & I have duplicated myself. Sure I have to go thru a lot of quitters to find the winners ... big deal! Everyone gets the same chance the company gave me ... & now it's a whole lot better. When I started we had no reimbursement after training! So you all can keep on whining, crying, moaning & complaining about why we're so bad ... while we just keep on helping families!

1. Gary, you may not be changing oil for Jiffy Lube in between financial advising appoiuntments, but lots of primerica people do. 2. Continuing education regulatuons were aimed at Primerica?????? LOLOLOLOLOLOL. PUH-LEEZE! I'll just let you tell the public why you think no agents should ever have to take continuing education once they are licensed. Its too ridiculous to respond to. By the way, in my state its 30 hours of continuing ed every 2 years. No big deal, and certainly nothing worth inventing some ludicrous story about. 3. Your office's 5-star compliance designation is just a primerica designation...doesn't mean a thing to anyone else. We all have SEC-NASD audits. 4. Your story about how UL was invented is highly entertaining but just a primerica fairy tale. UL was invented as a response to the high interest rates of the Carter era...yes, but thats where your story and any mention of truth are accidental. Insurance companies invented Universal Life because they were bleeding money in the late 1970s. They did it because when you could get 12% in a CD even a 6% guaranteed cash value looked bad in comparison and people were dropping policies left and right. It was change or die for the insurance industry. Universal Life actually evolved from adjustable life which came first. Universal life was the complete unbundling of the life/investment portions of the plan. 5. Surrender charges weren't something some insurance guru just invented to be mean as you imply. There is a cost to an insurance company to acquire and underwrite a new policy. The surrender charge is there so the insurance company can recapture that cost if the person quits the policy soon after its written. It also rewrds the person who stays in the policy longer. Its primerica's higher acquisition cost (to support the bloated commssion pyramid of an MLM)that is the chief culprit as to why their rates are so high. 6. You say UL policies self destruct. Well, term is guaranteed to self destruct on a timely, predicatble basis. Right now, UL policies are much better proposition to purchase than they were 20 years ago because interest rates are so low. If a policy is bought at a projected 4.5% interest in all likliehood over 30-40 years it will have periods where it will earn 9-10%, thereby making self-destruction a moot point. Of course, you didn't mention how the mortality charges (the true cost of insurance charged to the insured) in UL policies are steadily going down whereas in a term policy they are locked in stone and will never go down. You also didn't mention Universal & variable Life policies with Guaranteed Death Benefit Riders which preclude any chance of the policy self destructing. 7. What percentage of term is sold compared to whole life...its 55-45% according to LIMRA. Is cash value insurance innapropriately sold? Oh heck yes. Is cash value insurance inappropriately replaced by term peddlers...oh heck yes again. 8. gary repeats The famous primerica Myth that whole life is sold because the agent will make more commission. While technically true, its a typical primerica half truth. In real life people will most often decide on what they want to pay for insurance so the entire whole life versus term argument becomes moot. When that couple says "we don't feel comfortable paying more than $75 a month" then the agent's commission will be about the same no matter what type of policy is sold. Only a really dumb agent will try to get someone to pay $250 a month when he has been told $75 is the comfort zone. They may be silver tongued and talk that couple into $250, but it will get dropped in a heartbeat. In this case, where the couple has said "$75 a month" its actually in the agent's financial interest to sell term rather than whole life. Many whole life policies are capped at 55% commission whereas term can be as high as 110%. Besides, by selling the term appropriately the agent will keep the client and make more down the road. 9. Gary asks "why would anyone bundle savings with life insurance?". Because of the tax preferred status money invested in a life insurance policy has. All the growth in the investment portion of a life insurance policy can be taken out (under certain conditions) COMPLETELY TAX FREE. ROTH IRAs were modeled after the taxation in cash value policies. Unlike ROTH IRAs, the client can put in as much as they want. Does the ability to get at the growth in the cash values tax free mean everyone should rush out and buy a cash value policy???? Nope, but under some circumstances it makes sense whereas gary and the other primericans won't even consider those circumstances, they say no every time regardless of circumstance. 10. gary says 70% commission on $400 is less than 70% commission n $2500. Yep, can't argue mathematics. In real life anyone who is intent to pay $400 for insurance ain't gonna pay $2500 but thats another story Gary, how about paying $97,240 more for term insurance and a $250,000 home loan with primerica than with other highly reputable companies? 11. Clients get played by unscrupulous agents. ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!! Any agent that knowingly underinsures a family because he sells whole life rtaher than term when appropriate is unscrupulous. Any agent that knowingly sells term insurance that is 34-70% more in premium than that client can buy elsewhere qualifies as unscrupulous too. He is alkos underinsuring his client. Any agent who sells high interest loans with tripe about "interest rates don't matter, only time in debt matters" should be hung. 12. Finally, primerica myth #219.....The Theory of Decreasing Responsibility. It says as you go through life you have fewer and fewer responsibilities so you will not need life insurance. This is true.........PROVIDING YOUR LIFE PROGRESSES IN A STRAIGHT LINE WITH NO SWERVES OR CURVES. Do any of you know a couple that bought a $300,000 dream vacation home in their late 50s when the Theory of Decresing Responsibility says they will no longer have any responsibilities? How about a couple that simply refinanced their home in their late 50s? How about someone in their 60s having to take over the care and raising of a grandchild because the parents were irresponsible scumbags or tragically died? Do any of you know someone who retired from work and was told that if he chose the income option from his retirement that paid 33% more each month if his wife was instantly excluded from getting payments upon his death? You think covering that amount with permanent life insurance might be a good idea? Maybe yes? Maybe no? The thing is the primerica rep won't help you analyze that decision because he isn't equipped by training to and doesn't have a product to cover that situation even if he had any idea what I am talking about (pension maximization). I had a preacher client who had 2 children who were doing well in life....and a third who was in an institution with no hope of coming out. He wanted whole life so that the third child would be taken care of and not be a financial burden to the two other kids. I sold that policy inside a life insurance trust in 1980 and the death benefit was paid in 2005. There is no right and wrong answer whether any individual client should have cash value insurance or term insurance. Anyone who tells you there is only one answer is either aa shill or an idiot and should be avoided. Let me ask any consumer reading this.....would you want to talk to a person who has only one product from one company to offer you, (a primerican) or someone who will design a solution to your specific problems using any company or any product that best solves your needs?

44 year old Couple $500,000 20 year term insurance $250,000 home loan Primerica life $1670 a year Other A++ rated company $1250 a year Citibank Loan $23,280 in payments @ year 22 years 4 months to get out of debt Other national loan Co $23,280 in payment @ year 18 years 6 months to get out of debt EXTRA COST TO DO BUSINESS WITH PRIMERICA Life insurance $8,400* Loan $89,200* This means the mutual funds you buy from primerica would have to outperform the no-load funds you could by yourself by; NINETY SEVEN THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS (97,600) JUST TO BREAK EVEN!!!!!!!!! tell me again how "primerica life is competetive" tell me again how "interest rates don't matter". Would you sell this stuff to your brother/sister? To your parents? If the answer is yes you'll make a great primerica rep. *- doesn't include the "lost opportunity" cost of not being able to invest the extra money

We have to pass the same tests & exams as anyone else in this industry. I am Life & Health with P & C licenses, Mortgage Licensed & Series 6 & 63 Licensed (studying for my Registered Principle's License Series 26 - before promoting out to RVP) I do not wash my hands in a bucket after changing the oil & then leave the "shop" and go out & sell insurance in my spare time as you suggest. You've really been listening to all of that "tripe" that's put out by our competition (eeeerrr ... opposition) - haven't you ?? But even if that were true about working part-time ... I'm still carrying the same credentials as anyone in the industry & have taken continueing education requirements mandated by the state.. everyone in PFS must do that to remain compliant & to stay in business. When I first started in this business 15 hours of continueing education was required during the first 5-years after getting licensed ... then that would last me a lifetime. Our opposition in an effort to slow our growth down, lobbied the State Capitol & changed the law to 12 hrs every 2-years with an exam! The industry quickly back-peddled on that part, as this requirement meant was for them as well, not just PFS. Their agents were up in arms, saying, "You mean we have to take a test, what if we don't pass the exam? Will we lose our license - and who will hire an out of work insurance salesman?" They quickly got that part of the law changed but we still had to sit in a classroom with a hall-monitor (just like grade-school ... give me a break!) for the 12 hours, but the test got eliminated ... how conveeeenient! Now, thanks to the internet, we can do it online through an accredited company & take an open book exam for a fee (but it's monitored by someone not affiliated with the company) I also have a Commercial Drivers License a Fishing & a Hunting License, with Migratory Water-fowl stamp ... so there! Our 5-Star Office may have a link to our Company, but this designation is based on very high standards for maintaining accurate records & staying compliant in every area of our business. However, our audits come through not only our in-house company audits, but also the State & NASDAQ-SEC audits. I'm happy that you take your clients best interests to heart when you help them with their insurance purchases... you're the exception & not the rule. You beleive in term, most of the time for most people but in certain circumastances a bundled plan - whole life - universal life or variable universal life may have it's benefits. That's where we disagree! Can we agree on that? Do you know how universal life got "invented"? Some insurance actuary in order to give their agents something to combat US & our "buy term & invest the difference philosophy", created it & in it's pure form might have had a chance. But then some "insurance industry guru", said, now wait a minute, what if the market takes a nose-dive & we have a run on those cash values? So then they installed a surrender charge! I realize that charge will be for only approximately 15 years... but give me a break will ya? Even the wealthy can't afford to lose money, now can they? I'm sure you have exceptions .... but most of those policies will self destruct as they can't keep up with the projections & have to pay the guarantees. They eventually have to dip into the cash reserves to pay the higher costs of the term insurance & do not notify the client until the policy is about to lapse. I've seen letters to that effect sent to people who chose not to believe us & kept their valuable universal life policies. Now they have no savings & just to keep the policy in force for one more year have to come up with an extra $1400 that year! That's money they can't afford to pay!! What percentage of term insurance gets sold by any company compared to their permanent plans? Our life insurance is term, 100%! Why do those companies pay the agents more money to sell whole life than they do term? $200,000 cash value insurance versus $200,000 of term - either one of those will buy the same amount of groceries if the insured dies - right or wrong? And what is insurance for anyway? It's for income protection, right? Have you heard of that new auto-policy that has a forced savings plan ... or the home owner's policy with a college education fund or retirement plan attached? NO? That's right, cause they don't exist! So why would anyone bundle their savings with their life insurance? Cause that's how it's sold - right or wrong? Any average whole life premium is about 5-7 times more expensive than term. Commissions get calculated on premium collected, right? Example: If an agent gets 70% commission on $400 premium ($200,000 term) or 70% on $2500 premium ($200,000 cash value) what would most agents sell if they need to pay their bills & make a living? My insurance agent discouraged me from buying term when I was 25, married, with 1 kid & one on the way, and lots of debt! He asked me how much I could afford to save & how much I could afford to "invest" in this valuable whole life policy? And yes his "projected" illustrations did show 9.25% as CD's at that time were paying about that much (Jimmie Carter inflation - remember that?) Plus I could borrow the cash values at 5% when standard loans at that time were running at about 10% - 11%. He & his company were attempting to compete with the banks, you suppose? The return on the cash values - guarantee was 2 1/2% which I only discovered when a PFS RVP (formerly A L Williams) read it to me out of my policy. I know I should have not taken his illustrations at face value & should have read my policy - but he was an old Army buddy of my Dad's & I trusted him. Anyway, my experience in this business has shown me that most people get "played" by unscupulous agents who will do whatever it takes to get the higher premium with the lowest face amount as possible. The higher premium will make more money for him & the company & the lower death benefit helps the company as they will not have to pay a huge face amount if or when someone dies. That's a crime in anyone's books! I told my old agent that I could afford $25 a month for savings & the same amount for protection & I got a $40,000 policy, for $600 a year premium, leaving me totally underinsured! He could have put me in a term policy with a $200,000 death benefit for less money. Oh, he showed me $200,000 in cash value insurance but I could not afford the $175 per month premium... ! His company's happy, he's happy & thanks to PFS I'm mad as hell! As PFS, took the time to educate me on the theory of decreasing responsibilities, the evils of cash value insurance & "the buy term & invest the difference" philosophy. Oh by the way, the last I checked it does not cost anything for a Library card! Go research outside of the industry as I have done, there's hundreds if not thousands of articles & books on the subject. I personally (after reading the library books) invested in some of them & have my own personal library. Anyway, my health's about back to normal & I'm going back to work ... it's people (maybe not exactly) like you ... that creates a market for us...

Oops...I meant to ask Gary "you've never seen DIVIDENDS on a term policy from a participating company. Then you have lead a sheltered life.

Oops...I meant to ask Gary "you've never seen DIVIDENDS on a term policy from a participating company. Then you have lead a sheltered life.

Oops...I meant to ask Gary "you've never seen DIVIDENDS on a term policy from a participating company. Then you have lead a sheltered life.

Oops...I meant to ask Gary "you've never seen DIVIDENDS on a term policy from a participating company. Then you have lead a sheltered life.

The entire primerica presentation to its recruits and consumers is a series of lies, distortions and half truths. I can name a couple real quick....like YOU BORROW YOUR OWN MONEY which we touched on. Another is Primerica is the only company willing to give anyone a chance to build a team.........neglecting to mention there are a half dozen other national agencies doing exactly the same thing. The BIGGEST LIE....and the one Gary ducked the challenge to had to do with home loans. The BIGGEST LIE primerica says is "interest rates don't matter, only time in debt matters". April 2006, Two Couples, both 44 year old non-smokers in good health. The want $500,000 in life insurance and a $250,000 home loan. Both couple have FICO scores in the mid 700s. Now Gary my boy, it doesn't matter what debts they rolled into the $250,000, it doesn't matter how the interest on those debts was calculated, it doesn't matter what thier average (blended interest rate in primerica speak) interest rate was on their old loan and the consumer debts. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS WHAT HAPPENS FROM TODAY ON!!!!!! So, Couple A intelligently researches the market and finds they can both be covered with $500,000 of 20 year term insurance for $1250 per year from an A++ rated carrier. Couple B goes the other route and instead listens to Cousin Larry the primerica rep about how evil whole life companies are and buys the exact same amount of coverage from primerica....for $1670 a year.......a FOUR HUNDRED TWENTY DOLLAR DIFFERENCE. Couple A does one of two things with their extra $420.....they buy a $675,000 policy instead of a $500,000 thus protecting thier family better or the invest the $420 a year in a ROTH IRA and earn 12% a year (that the number primerica reps most frequently and irresponsibly throw around) so in twenty years they have THIRTY SEVEN THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED THIRTY FIVE DOLLARS ($37,335). Either way they are FAR ahead of Couple B and Cousin Larry. Couple B lets Cousin Larry dazzle them with talk of blended interest rates, how credit card debt is calculated, blah blah blah blah. They take a loan of $250,000 out at 7.75% and pay it bi-weekly because Cousin larry fooled them into believing INTEREST RATES DON'T MATTER....ONLY TIME IN DEBT MATTERS". Their monthly payment would have been $1791...the 26 biweekly payments are $895.50. 26 payments times $895.50 means they are committing $23,283 per year to house payments. In July of the year 2029 they will be totally DEBT FREE!!!!!!!! (22 years 4 months) Couple A on the other hand laughs calls several loan brokers and settles on and goes to FAMOUS NATIONAL MORTGAGE.. They get the same loan for 6.50%. They tell the NATIONAL guy about the biweekly payments Couple B is making. The NATIONAL rep says don't bother, just pay the same $23,283 a year in your 12 payments.....$1940 per moenth. In October of 2024 they will be DEBT FREE and will have SAVED $89,420 (EIGHTY NINE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED TWENTY DOLLARS)in payments over Couple B who listened to Cousin Larry who in attempting to defend his high interest loan said "INTEREST RATES DON'T MATTER .....ONLY TIME IN DEBT MATTERS". Cousin Larry and the primerica approach has another shortcoming. As Gary asked yesterday, how about having your insurance agent, investment advisor and banker all rolled into one at the same tale. Maybe that wouldn't be bad if that one person wasn't some half-trained primerican taught a canned sales pitch and nothing else. Couple A already saw that having people who specialize in certain areas has saved them a ton iof dough so they go ask a REAL financial planner about paying the house down quicker. He points out rather than paying the home off quicker, they should invest the moeny into a ROTH IRA instead. He uses the same 12% mutual fund projection Coisin Larry the primerican used an LO AND BEHOLD......that extra money would be worth $121,000 in 18 years and 6 months. Thats THE LOST OPPORTUNITY COST (Time value) of the extra money you'd be paying into your mortgage. Their mortgage would still have about $153,000 on it however. The financial planner then calculates it out to the full 30 years and says it would be worth $526,000. Which way is better? Each consumer will have a different answer and every one of them will be right. They have to weigh the known effect of paying the mortgage down early versus expected future growth. The point is....the couple that does not listen to The Primerica Rep gets to hear the WHOLE STORY, not a canned sales pitch designed to sell overpriced term and justify overpriced loans. They get to make an INFORMED DECISION. Now gary will counter about evio whole life companies not giving everyone all the information....and he is right, they did that back when they could get away with it. However, no matter what anyone else does or did in the past it doesn't change the fact Primerica hides the whole story from its reps, its clients and consumers. Now,.....you as the consumer reading Gary and me....which you would rather hear......one guy hollering about how his company is the best and everyone else is evil or three people searching the market to give you all the information necessary for you to make an informed decision? Couple A saved a total of $127,000 over Couple B. who trusted Cousin Larry. Does that influence your decision? It should. Primerica sells overpriced term and overpriced loans. It doesn't matter that someone else may also sell those things too....thats all primerica sells.

1. dividends are a return of premium...US Treasury ruling. <<< Yeah I know. So what? If you are the owner of a policy and your death benefit is growing without your premium going up each year because the dividends are purchasing paid up additions you don't care what the official definition is. The point is primericans have glossed over dividends as if they didn't exist, pointed only to the guarantees in the policies as the only thing meaningful, and then out of the other side of their mouth talked about mutual funds which have absolutely no guarantee. By the way....I learned all that stuff about 10-12% since 1928 and no 10 year period without growth too. In actuality the Dow Jones has an adjusted return of 6.40% and the SP500 8.4%. Yoiu can go to thier websites to find that info. If I put money in te market in 2000 and it takes til 2010 for it to have shown any growth I don't care that it means yet another 10 year period with growth....all I know is I have a net growth for 10 years on ZIP. 2. You've never seen a term policy on a policy from a participating company????? <<< You have lead a sheltered life then. At one time I sold it (Bankers Life of Iowa). The fact is no one needs to pay dividends on their term to blow pimerica's rates out of the water. The fact that most participating companies now sell term without dividends doesn't change the fact that they are lower rates than primerica offers....hummmmmmmm. 3."Anytime one settles for a guarantee then its a guaranteed loss". <<< Nice catch phrase. Completely meaningless in the real world. You can get a GUARANTEED return of 6.73% from US TReasuries.....a GUARANTEED return of 12% from First Deeds of Trust. You primerica guys showing those? Of thats right...they pay no commission. Why would you show someone either of those things? Besides, why would someone have ALL their money into NON-GUARANTEED products? Thats as dumb as only have CDs. 4. Read the roaring 2000s by Harry Dent???? <<

Still not doing the homework I see? Well, since you're on the other side of the fence & no library card ... I can understand. Here's some quick topics / comments in no particular order: "Dividends declared by participating companies are not dividends in the commercial sense of the word, but are simply refunds to the policy holder of a portion of the overcharge collected." That's why dividends do not get taxed on a Par/policy. (US Treasurey Decision #1743) I have yet to see a term policy issued by a participating company that will pay dividends on that term policy. Why is that?? All the ones I've seen thus far (strictly term) even though they are issued by a participating company state, "we do not intend to pay dividends on this term policy" ... huuummmmm?? Anytime one settles for a guarantee it's a guaranteed loss! After factoring in taxes & inflation a 4% guarantee turns out to have a negative return. Inflation - including new car prices & the higher costs of education has averaged conservatively around 6% - 8% annually over the last few decades. (my last calculation on Ford Mustangs - 6-3/4% but that's from a few years ago) The government's numbers are lower - as lobbyists & politicians (vying for re-election!) want inflation numbers to look good on paper & their numbers are for the most part about 2% - 4% lower! We only can show track records on our investments, no guarantees! But the market has been moving up (like a yo-yo on a staircase) on an average incline of 10% - 12% since 1928. I know we have had down times but if you look at any 10 year period we have had growth. The largest insitutional investors in the market are insurance companies & banks, yet they tell us to settle for a guarantee & invest with them where the money's safe! Give me a break, will ya? Have you not read the Roaring 2000's by Harry S Dent, Jr? In order to have cash values in the first year of any policy, requires a hefty premium. 1980 Truth about Insurance disclosures gets supplied in the packet of information only after the policy gets dellivered, but not required to get delivered at point of sale. Borrowing your own money from any Whole Life Policy & paying the company interest, was my attempt at KISS. Keeping it simple, stupid! Yes, the reason you pay interest, is you're borrowing the insurance companies money & your cash is held as collateral. Actually your money's tied up in long term investments, like the former World Trade Center. In other words, they can't get it out in a moment's notice to give it back to you.) As in variable universal life when the loan is made an equal portion of what gets borrowed is moved into a sub-account where it earns the quaranteed rate, until such time as it gets paid back. In any event, the loan reduces the death benefit until it gets paid off. Option B - (where when you die you get the cash value plus the death benefit) This program works similar to a whole life policy but with one added feature. First a portion of the premium goes to pay the true cost of the (term) insurance, then another portion goes into the cash values, where it earns interest & at death reverts back to the insurance company to help pay the death claim. Premium that's left over from these two charges then goes to Option B, where it also earns interest & gets paid back at death. If you do surrender the policy before death and give up the coverage, the insurance company will refund the cash values back to the owner as it represents an over-charge plus interest for the actual coverage. Option B: requires higher premium (more dollars). I know I tried to over simplify before, but you had to make it more complicated. That's why most people get taken advantage of. The insurance salesman likes to impress people with big words, but essentially all he/she does is ... baffle them with BS! Still haven't checked out that book by Norman Dacy - have we?? Federal Trade Commission Report showed the average rate of return on policies was 1.3% but the quarantees quoted & illustrations presented by agents for their whole life or universal life policies are much higher than that, how can that be? NO offices! I work out of a 5-star office that gets audited annually & we have had no challenges pertaining to any compliance issues. Why would anyone on good health & state of mind ... keep something that will continue to lose them money? Sure it's hard to cut your loses & go on ... but hey ... it does not make sense to keep on losing ground just to avoid admitting that you made a decision based on a lie?? ... give me a break!! Now what about this? So why would anyone buy cash value insurance? Largely because many life insurance companies are incredibly deceptive - from "Retire Rich! How To Plan a Secure Financial Future" by David E. Morse. Or the opening statement by Howard M Metzenaum at the Senate Subcommittee on Anti-Trust, Monopolies & Business Rights Hearing on "Life Insurance: A shell game of Premium Padding & Savings Schemes, June 23, 1991 U S Senate. Or how about the tons of articles done in various magazines, too numerouse to mention here, against owning any form of cash value insurances, dividend paying or not? Anyway, you do your "thing" that just makes my opportunity even greater!

Nice book. I'll try to write just a paperback in response so I highlited some points. However, before we begin lets get one thing straight.....I sell cash value products only when there is a need or desire for a death benefit to be in place forever. 90% of all policies I sell are term insurance. Anyone who sells cash value only is as reprehensible as someone who sells overpriced term insurance in all situations. 1. You said 85% of policies in force are cash value. Nope. Not even close 2. You said you after buying 3 whole life policies you were underinsured and overpremiumed. Thats exactly how I feel people end up after purchasing preimerica term. A typical couple could purchse $75,000-150,000 more death benefit for the same premium primerica charges them. 3. Illustration was at 9.25% but gurantee was 2.5%. I have noticed how primericans want to treat dividends and and excess interest as if they never happen but that is a crock. From the mid 19th century until the early 1990s some companies like New York Life had never failed to achieve dividend projections. Besides Gary, primericans are always tossing around mutual fund returns of 12% when calculating how much people will have in retirement. How much of that is guaranteed? 2.5% even? NOPE!!!! NONE of it is guaranteed. I have been at this since 1976. In my lifetime I have seen TWO 50% downturns in the SP500. So how are you any better than the guy who used a 9.25% projection when it wasn't guaranteed and didn't perform? I have seen mutual funds purchased in the 1980s from big name fund families in the same boat. Also, I don't believe for a second you had a -1.5% return on a whole life if it was participating policy (one with dividends). If you lost money on a 20 year old policy it was either a universal life with a lean premium/death benefit blend or a whole life that paid no dividends. Since you said it was projected at 9.25% it couldn't possible have been a non-participating whole life. Based on what you said only one of four conclusions can be reached; a.) it was a universal life with a lean premium b.) you were fibbing about owning whole life or; c.) you're yet another primerican that doesn't know the difference between whole life and universal life. d.) this is a standard primerica myth because the guy I duelled with on AOL for two years used the exact same story with the exact same numbers. I know it isn't you because that person couldn't spell or punctuate and you obviously write quite well. 4. The 4 rules of cash value insurance. (will you guys get the number of rules straight....the AOL primerican insisted there were SIX RULES) rule 1. No CV in first 1-3 years. Au contraire. That depends on the product. If one wants a lot of cash value build up then policies with higher premium/death benefit blends can yield a hefty cash value right away. If the cash values are irrelevant and only the permanent deatrh benfit is desired, then policies can be done very lean in which there is no cash value for 7 years or or more and never amount to much. The latter is the type I mostly do when I write cash value policies. rule 2. Some bilge about Congress passing laws so insurance companies didn't have to divulge information. In fact, the opposite is true. In the 1980s there was a spate of legislation that required insurance companies to disclose pratically everything. You and I differ in this. You think all insurance companies are evil except primerica whereas I believe all insurance companies are evil, especially primerica. rule 3.You have to borrow your own money out of a cash value policy. NO YOU DON'T!!!!!!!!! Sheesh! If you remembered anything you learned when getting your license you'd know this. The insurance company loans you THEIR MONEY. Your money remains in the cash value account and continues to earn interest. Its HELD AS COLLATERAL for the loan. Its paid back by reducing the death benefit if you die, reducing the amount you recieve if you surrender the policy, or is paid back by the policyowner. The NET interest rate between what your collaterelized cash value earns and the loan interest you pay averages around 2%. With some companies the net interest rate is ZERO!!! rule 4. Insurance company keeps your cash value if you die. THAT DEPENDS. In a universal life policy you can choose Option B and get both the death benefit and the cash value. In a whole life policy if you use the dividends to purchase paid up additions you have a growing death benefit that ends up approximating the cash value + death benefit of the original policy. In reality a whole life policy is nothing more than a reducing term policy with an interest bearing cash reserve. Primericans always falsely calculate the return on the cash value by using the entire premium in the calculation. It enables them to say..."SEE, YOU ONLY MADE 2.5% ON YOUR MONEY". They should deduct out the true cost of insurance from the premium in determining the rate of return on the cash value. In those 9.25% illustrations you were complaining about the projected policy performance was made with this calculation so the 9.25% was based not on the entire premium but the actual cash value after mortality. Your agent may not have known any better then you do now. No excuse for either of you. (Sorry,...this is going WAY over paperback length) 5. Gary asks "Who will put together a comprehensive plan for the middle class consumer without charging $300-1,000" PUH-LEEEZE don't try and tell me primerica is the only company that offers up a plan without a charge. By the way, calling that FNA of yours a comprehensive plan is like calling a row boat a battleship. FNAs are a dime a dozen. Its a canned sales pitch...nothing more. You can purchase them on the internet for peanuts. Selling someone some term insurance, rolling their credit card debt into a refinance and selling someone in a simple mutual fund AIN'T A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN!!!!! 6. Gary admits their premium flow isn't very high. Yes, and your death benefit liability is quite high. That combination could at some time down the road cause a major cash flow crunch at primerica. For each dollar of death benefit the company has out there they must keep a certain amount of pennies in reserve. I've seen at least one company that sold only term products go belly up because they had too much cash committed to reserves. Like primerica they were owned by a mother company. Like primerica, the mother company was a bunch of scoundrels. They refused to inject cash into the company and it went bellyup. Citigroup has absolutely no legal obligation whatsoever to bail out primerica policyholders should primerica ever have financial difficulties. 7. Gary says "not all annuities work the same". Thank you. Now go back to that generation of primericans who claimed that each and every annuity was an insurance company ripoff and explain that to them for me...would ya? 8. Teachers are broke? Old wives tale. Here in California teachers top out on the salary scale at between $80,000-100,000 per year. Taint bad for 8 months work. They retire with guaranteed incomes of $60,000 or so if the have 30 years experience and wait until at least age 60. That ain't bad either. 9. Large companies never called you to ask you to go to work. You surmised it was because you concentrated on middle class families. The reality is they don't call people who are already licensed whether they are with another company or they are independant. Licensed agents may move around on their own but head-hunting is a rarity. If an agency manager from one company personally knows a producer at another he may try to steal him. The big companies prefer to train their reps from scratch. 10. PFS makes house calls? Yeah? Are you implying no one else does? One reason they make house calls is they don't have an office. I still make house calls. I even have an office. 11. You say that the PFS client gets the agent, the banker and the credit counselor together at the same table and its always one guy. Too bad. If the client went to people who specilized in each field he would be exposed to ALL the possibilities in the market, not the same cookie-cutter approach. For example, there are many bankers who would be HORRIFIED at the prospect of a client rolling a car debt into their home debt. Why continue paying for a car 15 years after you have sold it? 12. Who told you no internet agents get commissions????? LOLOL What a crock of nonsense. I know this for sure. I am one. I sell over the internet all the time. I can even do the application online......and get paid full commission for doing it. 13. LASTLY (thank gawd) your joke about cash value companies never replacing each other's policies indicates how little you and your fellow primericans know about the business. When you replace a cash value product with another you had better have a compelling reason or you could run into MAJOR regulatory difficulties. It wasn't so much a genteleman's agreement between cash value companies, it was an acknowledgement that the client most times would suffer financial loss by switching to another policy and that loss was difficult to make up. However, there are some situations where it does make sense. This is where actual knowledge of the business comes in handy....not a jihad to replace evry cash value policy encountered regardless of the situation.. Whew! I'm done.

Ok, you got me on that one! 85% of what people OWN that's still in force (approx.) is some form of Cash Value or bundled insurance. (Universal Life, Variable Universal, whole life, etc.) That number may not be totally accurate, but I do know I'm in the ball park & if they stopped selling Cash value insurance today it would take us a lifetime to replace all of it with term. I owned 3 whole life policies before Primerica, was way under insured & over premiumed! My agent was a close friend of my dad & I trusted him to do what was right for me & my family. I had asked him about term, but he discouraged me & said, "term goes up in cost every year & does not build any equity - do you want that to happen?" He said, "Term is like renting (for poor people) & Whole Life you own it, much like a home. He also showed me reams of paper on what my cash values would do for my retirement. He used a hypothetical 9.25% Rate of Return on my cash values. That's when CD's were paying about that same rate. What do you think I said? Yep! You're the Man, sign me up! Then a gentleman contacted me about 5 years after I had purchased my life insurance in March 1984- with an opportunity to go into management, so I set an appointment for him to come over. He showed me what they did & how he got paid but I became intrigued with what he had to say about cash value insurance. My illustrations which showed the 9.25% also said in the fine print, this is not a contract but only an illustration. It also stated that they had never paid 9.25% in the past - were not paying it now - & did not intend to pay it in the future! Not in those exact words but in insurance jargon, and went on to show a measley 2 1/2 percent guarantee. That 9.25% was guaranteed the first year but I had no money in my cash values for 5 years, pretty safe bet ... wouldn't you agree? (by the way my net effective yield after 20 years was a negative 1.5% - how can they get away with that?) I had based my purchase on a lie & did not even realize it til someone from another company took the time to explain it to me. If I would have died while those policies were in force my family would have become destitute within 3-6 months & after funeral expenses, maybe less than that. Also, the other company guy, showed me the four funny banking rules: 1. no money goes into the cash value for 1-3 years (mine was five!) 2. low rate of return (1979 Federal Trade Commission Report - when this report came out the Insurance Industry went berserk & got Congress to pass legislation to muzzle the FTC!) 3. I have to "borrow" my own money from the policy at 4-8% (mine was 5%) 4. And if I die, the insurance company keeps my savings & just pays the death benefit! I remember asking Charley, my dad's friend, if I died will my family get both? Cause I understood that I was paying for insurance & paying in extra to go into this high interest account. His response, "Sure!" But thanks to PFS I found out that my cash gets surrendered to the insurance company so if I have a $50,000 policy with $10,000 cash I originally believed - that my family would get both - you guessed it - $60,000! What I did not understand was the term " cash surrender value"! I surrender my savings to the insurance company so they can pay the face amount of $50,000. I guess the insurance company didn't want my heirs to fight over all that money, so they keep it....! PFS helped me to get 6 times the coverage replacing my whole life with term, for the same dollars & they also saved me $75 on my taxes which they helped me to invest in a mutual fund (IRA) & since then I have a 5% increase done automatically semi-annually & now I'm fully funding IRA's on me & my wife. I did not recruit on as I did not picture myself as a salesman as I had a good engineering job with a small hydraulics company, locally owned. But I referred people to him - they would make their own decisions but I really felt good about what that PFS guy had done for me. My wife didn't like him as he asked to kick off his boots while in our house & his feet stunk! But other than that everything he said made sense. I first came on board with the other company in early 1985. My company had gotten bought out & the guy I had trained became my boss because he had 2-college degrees & I had only one. That's when I realized that no matter how good you are, your opportunity's always limited when working for someone else. Even if they paid me $100 per hour I could only earn so much as there's only so many hours in a day. Ok, enuff of my history... the internet was in it's infancy or non-existent back in the early 80's. Thanks to us educating people about "buy term & invest the difference",not a new concept, but something we have marketed since day one, and the onslaught of the internet & now TV, term insurance sales have gone up. Still I'll bet you have not read any of those policies, even term has a conversion clause to convert to whole life. Since we do not sell any Cash Value policies our conversion will only convert to a term product. Who out there will put together a comprehensive plan for the average person without charging them $300 - $1,000 for it? Do people waste money - and can they afford to waste it? I know most people would not pay someone big bucks to tell them what they already know ... that they're underinsured, in debt up to their eyeballs & need to save an extra $300 per month, right or wrong? I know if I had an extra $300 to $1,000 to spend I would use it for a vacation or to pay bills and not to give to some broker! Top 50 in premium flow? Since term is cheap, yes our premium flow will be lower ... as those other companies still sell that expensive cash value stuff, therefore their premium flow will be much higher. Anyway, guess I've gone on long enough. As to us puting down Annuities & then marketing them - not all annuities work the same. But it would take me a lot longer to explain how ours differ from the industry's. The same holds true for our Long Term Care. It's there to insure that after you have accumulated a nest egg it does not get wiped out by the high costs involved with managed care. It's there to protect the assets we have accumulated. There's a lot of people out there who have not built up enough in their retirement accounts to take care of them in their golden years, should they have to go into a nursing home, that's the only reason we market that product. Yes - if someone had taken the time to educate me on dollar cost averaging, the difference between revolving credit & simple interest, term v/s whole life, the Rule of 72, how to shop for a mortgage, etc. I would have been retired a long time ago. The reason I believe they don't teach this stuff in high school is cause all of the teachers are broke! For some reason, The lasrg companies - are not interested in me as they have never called me! Why? Probably because I did not have a net worth of $100,000 to make it worth their effort. That's why middle income families have gotten ignored by the brokerage firms, and even now most insurance agents will not bother working with the middle class. At least with PFS, they make house calls... it's like having my insurance agent (both life - health - property & casualty) my banker (mortgages), my tax preparer & my investment guy sitting at my table all at the same time working up a plan to get me debt free & financially independent - while protecting my family - and help to build up my retirement .. all working in concert with each other. Once I'm debt free & financially stable I will not need any life insurance. Make sense? When I got licensed in insurances the Whole life guys did not believe in replacemnent. We have a joke: "How many whole-life agents does it take to replace a light bulb?" Answer: NONE! They don't believe in replacement - they just screw one in on top of the other!!! And I'll bet even today, if applying for insurance on the internet they do not replace what you have but just add another policy to the pile. The internet has allowed insurance companies to market term, bypassing the agent, thereby eliminating commissions pretty much all together. I still suggesst you read "What's Wrong with your Life Insurance?" by Norman Dacy. As well as many other books available. Other than the internet not being regulated the only industry that's not federally regulated is the insurance industry. Each individual state does the regulating but the industry's so huge that these little insurance departments can not really do an adequate job protecting the consumer. Therefore, that's why we have this crusade. If it's not for you - that's fine. I't been a real pleasure "visiting" with you.... sorry, allowing you to give a competitors name would instigate others to just file against their competition, to only come back later to suggest their company your comments on this policy are welcome! CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

Gary...you seem to be mistaken. In actuality term insurance made up 45% of all new business in 2005. That couldn't possibly be the case if 85% of all policies sold are cash value policies....and they are not. Thats just a primerica myth foisted on to their people who never have the intellectual curiosity to see if their company is fibbing to them. Primerica barely cracks the top 50 among all companies in premium flow. Even after all these years and the 100,000 reps and international blah blah blah they are still miles behind in premium flow. I don't care what the 6 ways are to calculate credit card debt because its irrelevant in analyzing your home loan. What I am saying is this.....when you go to get your loan to consolidate your credit card debt into your home loan......and all the fees have been added, and all the propaganda as been passed around...just do this. Take whatever the 26 bi-monthly payments primerica is asking you to make and then see what making 12 payments totalling the same amount as the 26 biweekly payments to a loan from another company would do. Do the mathematical calculation. What you will find is all the gum beating in the world isn't going to change the fact if primerica would require you to make 26 payments in a year totalling $39,000 a year on a 7.5% loan it will take 3-4 years longer to pay off that loan than if you paid $39,000 a year on a 6.25% loan. The 1.25% spread between primerica and others is pretty typical and I know you won't try to say it isn't when its so easily proveable it is. So if TIME IN DEBT IS WHAT MOST MATTERS like you say, then why would I want to pay $39,000 a year to primerica for 23 years when I can be out of debt in 19 years paying the same amount to someone else????? I did this calculation with Ron from Bonita, CA., who claimed to be an RVP making a $skozillion with primerica. After doing the math he admitted I was right but countered "the biweekly payment plan is a forced savings tool and the middle class needs that kind of discipline". When I and 2 others pointed out that is the same line of reasoning cash value agents use...we never heard from Ron again. No one has to believe me or believe Gary. All you have to do is make the comparison yourself. Get a good faith estimate with the payment from primerica for whatever loan amount you need. The primerica rep will then tell you how many years before you are "out of debt". Now go to any national or independant loan brokerage you want. Say; "I want a loan for this much and regardless of what the chart says my monthly payment will be, I want to make 12 payments totaling the same as maiing 26 payments to primerica would be. With my credit score what will the interest rate be and how many years til my home is paid off?". You'll quickly find out whether its me or Gary that is full of hot air. (btw....I don't sell loans) Lastly Gary, no, I have never worked at primerica. I was a captive agent at AAA the first 5 years of my career and I would never again put myself into a position of having to pass on whatever nonsense the corporate marketing department dreams up to my clients......like interest rates don't matter, only time in debt matters" gary.....want to hear some "absolute truths" primerica said over the years that later changed? 1.) "30 year term is a ripoff dreamed up by the cash value companies. We'd never sell that." (primerica now offers 30 and 40 year term) 2.) "annuities are insurance company ripoffs". This was said in the day you could 15% in a CD. When CDs came down primerica started selling annuities. When the stock market took off primerica again started dumping on annuities and started selling mutual funds. 3. "variable annuities are an insurance company ripoff, buy mutual funds. You don't need the guarantees in varaible annuities". (After mutual funds took a huge dump 2000-2002, primerica now markets Met Life variable annuities because of the guarantees.) 4. "Long term care policies are just an insurance company ripoff. If you invest in mutual funds and follow the plan you can pay for long term care out of cash". (After the stock market took its huge dump from 2000-2002 primerica began marketing GE Capitol Long term care policies) Gary....I predict within the next 3-4 years primerica will have a variable life insurance product on the market and then your long tirade about variable life policies will become obsolete just like all the previous tirades primerica reps had to learn regarding annuities, 30 year term, variable annuities and long term care did. Gary....lastly, I reiterate...no, I have never worked at primerica or any other MLM because I have a personal integrity that would never let me sell mediocre products to unsuspecting consumers.

Those 100's of other companies that sell cheaper term must not sell very much of it (since it's so cheap) as about 85% of what's sold by the industry is some form of cash value insurance. That doesn't mean cheap term's not out there in someones rate book, but it's not getting sold! And if it does get sold its a loss leader to get people eventually converted to some kind of whole life insurance. I know I'm talking to a fence post, but evidently you have not read "What's Wrong with your Life Insurance" by Norman Dacy. If you really knew how money works & how banks & credit card companies manipulate interest rates you would not make those assinine remarks about rates. You talk about brain-washing, well that's exactly what they (banks & credit card companies) do to people. There are 6 ways interest can get calculated on credit cards & you probably can't name one, or know how it applies. The most important factor in determining the value of a loan is the total cost of the loan & the amount of time to pay off that loan. Certainly interest does play a part but interest can get manipulated. Would you rather pay 8% fixed on a 30 year loan (paid off in 30 years) or 9% & have it paid off in approximately 20 years - 10 mos (making bi-weekly payments where the payment gets applied the day it's received & the loan reamitorized on that day)?? I know you will say other banks do bi-weekly payments but they put the payment into a sub account & it gets applied at the end of each month. This will knock about 24-28 months off of that 30 year loan. Do the math! I know I did! We recently bought a home & went thru Citibank but we compared their best to 4 other banks. The citi-loan came out $54,000 cheaper than the closest competitor & the worst was $92,000 higher & they had the lowest rate! Were you ever involved in Primerica? If so you must have done something wrong & had gotten terminated or you're just one of those people that hates everything, either that or you're a whole life agent! The reason websites can get shut down is there is a law against slander. When someone or some organization intentionally slanders an individual or company - yes they can get in deep legal trouble.

There are 2 ways to flop at primerica. One is to sell policies to a few family and friends, give away the commission to some half trained RVP and then drop out............the other way is to make gazillions of dollars underinsuring trusting families by overcharging them for term insurance and convincing them they should pay $60,000-70,000 more in interest to Citibank on their mortgage. Then you will have flopped in your crusade to save middle class America from evil corporate greed. You will in fact have served them up on a platter to arguably the most evil and greedy corporate entity out their today....Citigroup. (if not the worst they make anyone's Top 5) Yo Gary.....primerica has been very effective at shutting down websites that tell the truth about primerica. I am surprised this one has been able to stand up to the withering attack primerica its pack of attorneys have thrown at other sites. I have been a regular on 4 different boards that primerica has shut down over the years by going after the owners who didn't have millions to shell out to fight the litigous onslaught primerica aims at them. Thats the real treason you found only 1050 hits with your Google of I hate Primerica. Primerica simply doesn't want the information out on the web that; 1.) the term insurance they sell is overpriced compared to 100s of other highly rated companies 2.) all the blather about scheduled interest, simple interest, blended interest in the end doesn't mean diddly. If someone else will give you a loan 1-1.5% less it saves you money.....PERIOD 3.) that primerica undercompensates its people. Primeruica doesn't want their reps to find out they can go on the exact same crusade build a downline that sells only term, eliminates debt and invests in mutual funds with sevarl other national agencies who will pay the representatives a LOT MORE COMMISSION and at the same time SAVE THE CONSUMER A LOT OF MONEY. .

Jay, I have one question. If Primerica is the most ethical company in the world and does the right thing 100% of the time.....how come they got banned in New York. Was that mean old Elliot Spitzer picking on them just for funsies?

Evidently you must have gotten abused as a child to have nothing better to do than to look for ways to bash Primerica. Out concept's not on trial, our company's not on trial & neither are we!! I'll bet you have not read the book, "What's Wrong With Your Life Insurance," by Norman Dacey. (Or "The Roaring 2000's by Harry S. Dent or "What all stock & mutual find investors should know!" by Bruce N. Sankin -or- "How Your Life Insurance Policies Rob You" by Arthur Milton - or "Rich Dad - Poor Dad" & the "Cash Flow Quadrant" by Robert Kiyosaki - or - "Success from Home Magazine" July 2005 issue - the entire magazine's dedicated to PFS - or - "Pushing Up People," by Art Williams - I have an entire library or how about authors John C. Maxwell & Tom Hopkins & "Finishing Rich", by David Bach? Then the "177 Mental Toughness Secrets of the World Class," by Steve Siebold - or - well, do you want me to go on??) I can understand, you evidently have not read these books - Ignorance is bliss! And I'll bet you've never read as many whole life policies as I have (or replaced as many) nor have you seen as many of the exotic (mortgage) loans as I have. Nor have you helped as many as I have to get people out of high interest credit card debt & to help them determine their FIN #? (Financial Independence Number - The amount they need to invest & at what rate & the number of years so when they reach retirement they have enough money to last throuhout their life expectancy - taking into consideration inflation) That's why it's so easy for you to riducule everything about PFS. You've not gone the distance & I can only say a little prayer for you & then move on. This opportunity's not for everyone but we believe in giving (almost) everbody a chance - cause no one can look inside of a man or woman to see if they have what it takes to succeed. We Recruit large numbers of people cause most people want to make more money or want to change careers but only about 20% will keep their word. If losing weight is healthy for over weight people, then why does the USA have an obesity challenge? We still need truck drivers, nurses, mail carriers, accountants, engineers, teachers, etc. to keep this country going but there's a few of us out here that do not want to do any of those kinds of jobs, that's why we joined Primerica. What's wrong with making money, after all this is the free enterprise system, right? Have you ever trained anyone at your job & did your company pay you to do that? It's probably easier to do the job yourself right? But once you trained that person, didn't that make the company more profits? Here at PFS we pay people in direct "proportion" to the success they provide to the company, does that make sense? At Primerica the only time my upline made more money than me was while he was duplicatiing himself thru me. And I understood as in the beginning he did 50% - 90% of the work! Now I get the majority off of what I do, as I'm doing 90% of the work. Sure there are companies out there that sell term but those same companies also sell the expensive overpriced cash value policies. An agent will make 7-10 times more commission selling cash value than he will term. These companies can actually lose money or break even on term as they make a ton more money from cash value policies. And if you're that agent & have to feed your family, what would you sell... $200,000 term policy that will pay you a $200 commission or a cash value policy that pays $1800 commission?? Anyway, the internet's not regulated & when you Google "I hate the USA" you will get over 2 million hits, but that's not going to convince me to move! Try typing in "I hate God" & you will get over 4 million hits but that's not going to convince me that there's no God! And finally I typed in "I hate Primerica" & got 1,050 hits (that's how I found ROR) but that's not going to make me quit! Just because it's on the internet does not mean any of it's true, now isn't that right? Talking to you is like talking to a fence post! Figures do not lie, but liers will go figure! I'm really glad there are (gullible) people out there like you to criticize PFS as that just lights my fire & makes me work that much harder, helping family's solve the fundamental challenges that prevent them from achieving their goals & reaching their dreams ... thankx :o)

Evidently you must have gotten abused as a child to have nothing better to do than to look for ways to bash Primerica. Out concept's not on trial, our company's not on trial & neither are we!! I'll bet you have not read the book, "What's Wrong With Your Life Insurance," by Norman Dacey. (Or "The Roaring 2000's by Harry S. Dent or "What all stock & mutual find investors should know!" by Bruce N. Sankin -or- "How Your Life Insurance Policies Rob You" by Arthur Milton - or "Rich Dad - Poor Dad" & the "Cash Flow Quadrant" by Robert Kiyosaki - or - "Success from Home Magazine" July 2005 issue - the entire magazine's dedicated to PFS - or - "Pushing Up People," by Art Williams - I have an entire library or how about authors John C. Maxwell & Tom Hopkins & "Finishing Rich", by David Bach? Then the "177 Mental Toughness Secrets of the World Class," by Steve Siebold - or - well, do you want me to go on??) I can understand, you evidently have not read these books - Ignorance is bliss! And I'll bet you've never read as many whole life policies as I have (or replaced as many) nor have you seen as many of the exotic (mortgage) loans as I have. Nor have you helped as many as I have to get people out of high interest credit card debt & to help them determine their FIN #? (Financial Independence Number - The amount they need to invest & at what rate & the number of years so when they reach retirement they have enough money to last throuhout their life expectancy - taking into consideration inflation) That's why it's so easy for you to riducule everything about PFS. You've not gone the distance & I can only say a little prayer for you & then move on. This opportunity's not for everyone but we believe in giving (almost) everbody a chance - cause no one can look inside of a man or woman to see if they have what it takes to succeed. We Recruit large numbers of people cause most people want to make more money or want to change careers but only about 20% will keep their word. If losing weight is healthy for over weight people, then why does the USA have an obesity challenge? We still need truck drivers, nurses, mail carriers, accountants, engineers, teachers, etc. to keep this country going but there's a few of us out here that do not want to do any of those kinds of jobs, that's why we joined Primerica. What's wrong with making money, after all this is the free enterprise system, right? Have you ever trained anyone at your job & did your company pay you to do that? It's probably easier to do the job yourself right? But once you trained that person, didn't that make the company more profits? Here at PFS we pay people in direct "proportion" to the success they provide to the company, does that make sense? At Primerica the only time my upline made more money than me was while he was duplicatiing himself thru me. And I understood as in the beginning he did 50% - 90% of the work! Now I get the majority off of what I do, as I'm doing 90% of the work. Sure there are companies out there that sell term but those same companies also sell the expensive overpriced cash value policies. An agent will make 7-10 times more commission selling cash value than he will term. These companies can actually lose money or break even on term as they make a ton more money from cash value policies. And if you're that agent & have to feed your family, what would you sell... $200,000 term policy that will pay you a $200 commission or a cash value policy that pays $1800 commission?? Anyway, the internet's not regulated & when you Google "I hate the USA" you will get over 2 million hits, but that's not going to convince me to move! Try typing in "I hate God" & you will get over 4 million hits but that's not going to convince me that there's no God! And finally I typed in "I hate Primerica" & got 1,050 hits (that's how I found ROR) but that's not going to make me quit! Just because it's on the internet does not mean any of it's true, now isn't that right? Talking to you is like talking to a fence post! Figures do not lie, but liers will go figure! I'm really glad there are (gullible) people out there like you to criticize PFS as that just lights my fire & makes me work that much harder, helping family's solve the fundamental challenges that prevent them from achieving their goals & reaching their dreams ... thankx :o)

Not only was Primerica banned in New York, but they were part of the subject of a national executive committee meeting at the National Conference of Insurance Legislators. The topic of discussion was the striking trend of lawsuits that were coming out of the New Mexico State court system. Within the court system; the general reason Primerica was being sued was on the basis of the following: "...plaintiffs challenge the long-established practice of insurers (Primerica) adjusting a policy's premium from the annual amount, based on the frequency, or mode, (e.g. monthly, quarterly, or semi-annually) of premium payments...the thrust of the plaintiff's complaint is the failure of the defendant to adequately disclose in their insurance policies what the differing premium payment options would cost the policyholder and what the "actual interest rate" the policyholder would have to pay when paying on a basis other than annually..." Boy, it is way too much information out there against Primerica. I can not find any RECENT INFORMATION suggesting Primerica is worth anything, expect for their AM Best. As a matter of fact, when I looked at their AM Best rating, they were recently downgraded from A++ to A+ and from aaa to aa in their long term credit rating. Nothing further until some Primerica idiot responds...

To begin with, lots of things aren't illegal but it doesn't make them good for the consumer. Carnival games come to mind. You can make good money doing carnival games too. According to primericans thats all that matters. carnival games have been around since the Middle Ages. I guess thatalso makes them great stuff according to primerica logic. Someone on these boards claimed New York had a brief ban on Primerica few years ago. I dunno. I hadn't ever heard that. I know for sure California Insurance Department held a death penalty hearing for Primerica in its previous incarnation (Massachusetts Life and Indemnity Company). The hearings were held in san Francisco in 1989. You can archive the San Francisco Chronicle if you like. The results of that hearing was a wholesale change in how california licensed new insurance representatives. The other thing I know for sure is this...... a consumer couple can buy $75,000-150,000 more term insurance for the same premium primerica charges from any one of a number of highly rated companies. Why underinsure your family because you listened to a canned sales pitch? A couple can make the exact same house payment to a $MART loan from primerica or to any one of about 1000 loan if they do it with primerica. Why pay Citibank and extra $60000-70000 in interest over the course of your loan because tyou fell for a canned sales pitch. I do know for sure you can go to one of a half dozen other national agencies and sell nothing but term life insurance, show people how to get out of debt sooner with an accelerated mortgage plan and have the exact same mutual funds. By doing so YOU THE REP WOULD MAKE FAR MORE MONEY while at the ame time your CLIENTS ARE SAVING MONEY. Why only get paid half as much commission as you would make elsewhere selling the same products just because you fell for a canned sales pitch. Gary is happy as a clam and is making money overcharging his clients and underpaying his downline. Takes all kinds I suppose.

Primerica and its reps are the epitome of lies and deceit! It's not hard for me to come up with that conclusion, because I have not seen a Primerica rep come in this thread that has proven different. It's amazing (and often funny) to see how many different ways this dumb a*s Primerica blather can be construed. Look who we have here, Gary, from Kansas, who thinks he's saying some stuff ?nobody' has heard already. Truth is; if he took the time to read (I should just shoot myself for thinking they will), he would have probably noticed that. Nope, so instead, he shoots the same sh_t every other clueless, ignorant, Primerica rep has done. Number one; don't come in here with statistics and don't submit a source. Where did you get that total from, or did you just pull that out of your a*s! You did, because if you go on www.dsa.org, you will find more accurate statistics. By the way; you're way off (of course, he's a Primerica rep). Number two; why in the hell do you assume everyone posting on here is not successful in their own vocation? Don't you people do enough assuming already?! Please, give those types of comments a break! Number three; you say this, ?Bottom line we can work for a company & let them over-ride us or we can go to work with a company that allows us the freedom & choice to do the over-riding!? I'm sorry, but that sounds dim-witted. PRIMERICA IS A BUSINESS THAT IS BASED ON RECRUITS OVERRIDING RECRUITS. YOUR UPLINE WILL ALWAYS MAKE MORE MONEY THAN YOU NO MATTER WHAT! Every piece of business pursued by you or your up line will be overridden by, WHO, YOUR UPLINE! No one overrides anyone in corporate America; however, Primerica reps are too ignorant to see the difference! Number four; you are a regional leader, not a RVP, so that means you probably have been there between 0 ? 7 years. So, my friend, maybe you are jumping the gun when you say that you've seen people eliminate their debt, when the truth is, you've only seen them get signed up for Primerica's program. Just because they sign up doesn't mean their debt is immediately eliminated, restructured in some cases, but not eliminated. Primerica has been around for 29 years, so that means most of the plans written in the beginning (that lasted) are just now reaching maturity. We will see what happens after that! A little note; in the past 10 years Primerica has not doubled in size, what makes you think they'll do that now? P.S. By the way, you can't apply the boy scout (ROFLMFAO) theory of K.I.S.S. to someone's financial siutation! Please tell me Primerica did not teach you that, and even further, tell me you're not using that theory to tackle the many complexities of insurance & investing! The American middle-income individual deserves more than this!

by Norman Dacey: Read it & then try & convince someone that Whole Life Insurance will ever out perform - "Buy Term & Invest the Difference" which by the way is what Primerica does 100 % of the time. All of this ridicule - back biting & nay-saying about Primerica will sadly only get believed by those of you who have not a clue about what's right & what's wrong. Social Security is a legal pyramid (millions of people paying in but only a small percentage collecting) & so is the Powerball Lottery (the way the government taxes the poor!) but Primerica is not a pyramid or a scam. Are they perfect? Heck No! Only God can claim that distinction & He made the seed in the mango too big! I'm keeping this short & sweet. If Primerica were so bad as most of the comments here would lead one to believe - they would have gotten outlawed 29 years ago... wouldn't you agree?? GP in KS

The Boy Scouts have a simple phrase: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid !) Here's a clear comment on Primerica, the Hybrid "Golden Child" of MLM marketing: Approximately 10 million people across the USA belong to some sort of MLM company. Of that number about 10,000 of those earn a six figure ($100,000) annual income or higher and about 2200-2400 roughly of that 10,000 work in Primerica!! There's a message in that - right or wrong? That's nearly 25% out of the total 10,000 - of course I come from an Engineering background that does not deal with absolutes, we just attempt to get reasonably close! If all of these nay-sayers would put more effort into working instead of finding reasons things (or company's) do not work, we would have a much more productive society - true or false? Bottom line we can work for a company & let them over-ride us or we can go to work with a company that allows us the freedom & choice to do the over-riding! When a company hires someone on a "guaranteed" income of $50,000 that same employee must bring in at least $250,000 - $500,000 in profits to justify them getting hired in the first place. Then when they need that job - I mean really need it, the company will find a way to force that person out or into early retirement so the company can hire someone half their age at half the price & with fewer benefits to work longer hours, isn't that usually how it goes? I worked in mechanical engineering & landed my company several million dollar contracts in one year - but I got paid the going rate for engineers in my part of the country, less than $40,000 per year. (1990) Primerica has stayed strong for 29 years & will continue with the crusade: Buy Term & Invest the Difference & to help middle income families get totally debt free & financially independent. They will double in size within the next 3-5 years & not even get close to a 10% market share! This will happen with or without me (or any of you critics)! Talk's cheap but Winners just "DO IT!" And Losers, well you know that story. G P PFS Reg. Manager in KS

1.) you're a woman. They charge women the same rates as men. No one else in the industry that I know of does that....and they are not very competeive on men 2. you're a smoker. As much as they overcharge in general if you use tobacco in ANY form primerica calls you a smoker and their smoker rates are really outrageous. If you only use cigars, chew or a pipe, some companies will actually give you a standard non-tobacco rate. You can get double the death benefit for the same premium if you're a smoker and 2-1/2 to 3 times the death benefit if you're a light tobacco user with companies other than primerica. 3. you have diabetes type 2. Last I heard, which was within the last few weeks, primerica won't take you at all. Many companies will give a type 2 diabetic standard rates if their sugar levels test OK. I just qualified someone for term insurance at standard rates who had been told by a primerica agent no company would touch him. 4. if you have any common healh problem such as high blood pressure, high cholesterol or overweight. If your condition is controlled with medication many companies will still give you preferred rates...last I heard primerica won't. 5. if you're a careful consumer. If you want to have less death benefit for your premium so you can help out cousin Larry at his new job, fine. However, if you're a typical consumer you can get $75,000-150,000 more death benefit for the same premium dollar with any one of a hundred other companies. 6. if you already bought from primerica call any one of the national quoting agencies or look on the net for new rates. The liklihood is even if you bought your primerica policy as much as 10-15 years ago you can still get more insurance for a longer time without paying a penny more in premium. If you bought it within the last few years its a lead pipe cinch.

The following is too long and I apologize in advance, but if you're a considering getting hooked up with primerica as a consumer or agent its worth reading. 1. Teron says whole life is a ripoff 100% of the time. Thats sheer indoctrination. There are many solid uses for cash value insurance. CV isn't right 100% of the time and neither is term. If you're a consumer reading this and someone approaches you about life insurance ask 1 easy question. "Which is better...whole life or term?" If the immediate answer is not "IT DEPENDS" then run as far as you can as fast as you can. You're about to get a canned sales pitch 2. Teron says CV builds slowly. Once again, nonsense. You can structure a policy to have lots of cash value early on, or you can structure it to have as little cash value as necessary to run the policy out to age 100 or anything in between. Teron is the typical primerica "Financial Analyst" (sic) that knows only the sales pitch he has been taught and nothing else. 3. Teron says a whole life policy keeps your cash value if you die. Wrong again. If you use the dividends to purchase paid up additions your death benefit grows every year while your premium stays the same. If its a UL, VUL or EIUL you can choose option B and get both the death benefit and the cash value. If your goal is to have permanent protection at the lowest possible premium you choose option A and keep the cash values low. 4. Teron says selling whole life is more profitable for the agent. That is absolutely laughable. Just another primerica myth. In fact, the opposite is true more times than it isn't. In the real world most often a middle class client commits a certain amount of dollars he will pay for insurance. Once that commitment is made the agent will end up with approximately the same commission no matter what product is sold, around 90% of the first year premium. If its a New York domiciled company he would only get 55% commission on the whole life so selling term would actually generate more commission. 5. Teron quotes the typical newbie myth of 10-12% average return for mutual funds. Go to Standard and Poor's website. The raw return (before taxes and expenses) for the SP500 since its inception to now is 8.40%. When the market takes a huge dive like it did 2000-2002, it takes forever to make it up. Most mutual funds dropped close to 70% then. That means those funds have to gain 233% just to get back to even. Teron hasn't been around long enough to see this sort of thing. 99% of primerica agents have not since they are typically done and gone within 12 months. 6. Teron says he doesn't care what other companies pay in commission. Teron didn't read my statement right. I told Teron if he had sold the EXACT SAME PRODUCTS (meaning all term), the exact same amount of loans and recruited the exact same people to his team, he would have made twice the commission he claims to have made, his recruits would have made twice as much commission, and his clients would have saved literally 10s of $1000s over the next 20 years because primerica sells overpriced loans and term insurance. 7. Teron says primerica pays him in real money and he isn't getting ripped off. Thats because Teron has no experience with anyone else to compare it to. In other words, he simply doesn't know any better. No one else requires you to turn over your first 6-7 cases to someone else and then starts you at 25% commission after that. You start at around 90% from day #1. 8. Teron probably thinks the Financial Needs Anaylsis software is unique to primerica and a great guift to the client. Its nothing more than a canned sales pitch and in fact you can download FNAs free from the net all day long. I became an agent 30 years ago almost to the day and we were doing Financial Needs Analysis back then. The only difference was my company at the time called it a Financial Profile. It was the same darn thing. If you're a consumer here is the deal....if you deal with a primerica agent you are going to get a canned sales pitch full of half-truths and distortions. Your Financial Analyst (sic.....commission salesman is what he is) will be trained in two things and two things only......how to sell you overpriced term insurance and loans....and how to sell you a dream. I'll say it again....if you investigate the market place you will find you can; 1. sell only term insurance 2. invest the difference 3. show people how to get of debt and 4. build a team underneath you. The difference is your clients will be getting more death benefit for their dollar elsewhere, they will get out of debt quicker, they will have MORE TO INVEST, and you and your team will make a lot more money if you do it with one of the other half dozen national agencies who all sell numerous different companies, not just one like primerica does. ....and any Financial Analyst that is too intellectually lazy to check out and see if what I am saying is true is too intellectually lazy to sell anything of a financial services nature to any consumer.

Once again you PFS reps assume too much. Who said I was talking about Whole Life. PFS does not teach you anything about the differences and uses for different types of life insurance policies. FYI an Equity Indexed Universal Life product pays up to 17% on the cash in the policy. And there is an option in the policy so that upon the death of the insured, the beneficiary gets BOTH the cash and the face amount. Many of the best EUIL policies have wash loan provisions where the net interest on a policy loan is ZERO and some have loan provisions that actually pay a net positive interest on a loan. And the cash value in an EIUL does not fluctuate with a downturn of the stock market. You mutual funds do. If I had 100K in cash value and you had 100K in a MF and the market took a 10% dive your MF is worth 90K and my cash value is still 100K. If the next year the market gained 10% your MF would be worth 99K and my cash value would be worth 110K. And let's not talk about the fees and taxes (long term and short term capital gains) that your MF passes on to you. Do I need to show you that an EIUL can actually beat a taxable MF over the long run if it's funded properly? You guys go around telling people that they should dump a policy that has significant cash value but you never tell people that they will be taxed on the distribution and as in the case with my client, not only would you have cost him the taxes, but you would have exposed his heirs to estate taxes and he would have had to pay taxes on all of the gains he might have earned by putting his cash in a mutual fund or some other investment. So you see he was actually better off having the permanent insurance and if he followed your advice, you would have cost him and his family tens of thousands of dollars. You think that's doing the right thing? You've had your licenses for less than a year and you presume to know more about financial planning, insurance and investments than a person who has been doing this for over 15 years? Ask one of your rich up line guru's who make over 250K per year these questions: Since you earn so much, how do you take advantage of tax deferred growth other than a SEP IRA? Do you know how you can get similar benefits as a ROTH IRA even if you don't qualify for one? How are you planning to deal with estate taxes when you die? Here's a hint the best way to leave money to cover estate taxes is permanent life insurance. I am not a CEO, I work for myself and I actually own my business. No company can tell me what I can and can't do or can and can't sell in my business. I don't have to give my best agents away to an up line to get a top contract. My agents start at a higher commission than they would get at PFS and they can still get the same contract as me and I still override their business for life. You say PFS doesn't take advantage of people but they do exploit their agents. You have licenses and PFS starts you out at 25% where you can get at least 50% and up to 130% commissions to start if you worked for another agency building marketing company. If you worked as an independent rep, you would not have to pay to use company financial analysis software or to use a web site to track your business. PFS charges you to sell their products by charging fees for using their Call Atlanta software and as far as I know they are the only insurance company that charges their agents fees for web site and software use. If you represented many insurance companies, you would get all the marketing material you want for free and each company would offer you free product training seminars and will usually give you continuing education credits for attending. I don't see how you say you are doing what's right for clients when you only have a limited product line. You can offer no choice and the products you do have can easily be beaten in price and value by hundreds of other insurance, mortgage and investment companies out there. I understand that you're young and excited about what you have been promised by PFS but you must realize that there are more and better opportunities in the financial services business that would pay you and your sales team more and allow you to do more for your clients. Don't crtitcize others for not thinking what PFS does is a good thing. They might know something you don't know and what your pals at PFS won't tell you.

Please! All of you MLM co-religionists stop and think for moment....and that means brushing off that "Upline Fairy" roosting on your shoulder and whispering in your ear. If MLM is such a great business model why didn't Henry Ford, Tom Edison, or Bill Gates use it for their businesses? I got NEWS for you, it ain't "The Great White Way" of business success. If it were, it would undoubtably have been far more popular before "lynching" became such an out-moded form of expression for mass discontent with the Justice System. In my opinion, from a consumer viewpoint, and from the sidelines watching various friends, family and associates go thru the motions with different incarnations of this beast, MLM is a very mediocre business model for dispensing very mediocre products into the marketplace. Why would I purchase MLM products that are priced 50% higher than the selection on the shelf at the corner drugstore? I have a budget and I want what I want now! I'm not waiting for vitamins to come in the mail! Get REAL!! Primerica's products wouldn't stand up for me in the independent marketplace anytime I encountered them while shopping for financial and insurance services. They always seemed to be missing something I deemed to be crucial in the product I was finally going to select. Like buying a Radio Shack "Realistic" receiver when you can have the Sony for $5 more. Duh!!! The final straw for the MLM camel is the fallacy of the "downline". It's all too complicated and fraught with possibities for fraud. Not to mention what happens when the pool of potential "downline" candidates dries up. The best marketing schemes are the simplest. If you can't break it down to a guy making widgets in his garage, it ain't really honest. I'd sooner sell Lemonade out in front of my home, thank-you just the same. The only MLM scheme I ever saw work well was the network of kids selling pot in my high school. Everybody took their cut and everybody seemed happy with it. Imagine That!!! Pipe Dreams!

So that tells me that you don't have a clue about how Primerica works. When a rep of ours told your client that a whole life policy was a rip off, he was correct. I was a previous client of Primerica before I joined the opportunity, so I know for a fact that Whole Life Policies are a total rip off. It is designed to be more profitable for the company, not the consumer. Where as in Primerica, we teach our clients to buy term and invest the difference. I had a client last week with a whole life policy. The bread winner was paying $320 a month for $75,000 coverage on each him and his wife and a $10,000 term rider on their 12 year old daughter. The policy had been in force for 4 years, and he had under $500 in cash value. I will point out to you why it's a rip off. Number one, cash value builds very slow. Cash value is the client's money but they can't use any of that money for the first 3-5 years. If the client borrows some of their cash value, you charge them interest on the amount borrowed and the client must pay it back or their policy lapses. The cash value belongs to the client not the company. Another thing the company keeps your cash value if you die. Do you think that's better for the consumer? How low can you people get? People that sell whole life policies are lower than a dog. It's more profitable for the agent and company, but right out dirty for the consumer. What I did for this family was replaced the same exact coverage for $176 a month term insurance. And we invested the remaining $146 dollars into Smith Barney Mutual funds. And the client has access to their money anytime they please, and not charged interest. If the bread winner dies, the beenficiary gets the death benefit plus what has been invested. Smith Barney Mutual Funds average 10 to 12 percent rate of return. Interest in a cash value is maybe not even 3 percent. There's a lot more to life than just making money, but if you wish to make lots of money at least do what's right for people. I believe if Primerica can pay us agents very well for what we do, and still can offer some of the best services to our clients, that makes Primerica one of the best opportunites out there. I don't care how much another company is willing to pay me, if I'm not doing what's right for my clients then I don't want any part of it. And you say we are not real agents and don't really own our own businesses? We carry the same licenses that anybody else carries in the financial services field. I don't care if I'm not CEO of a company. Is that what you call a real business, being a CEO? People only want to become a business owner for these reasons. Not having a boss, unlimited income potential, independence, and financial freedom. What makes Primerica a real business is that they offer each one of those things. That's really all I want out of this business. And I will accomplish all those things within the next few years. Also one of the most incredible thing is about Primerica is they pay me REAL MONEY. And they sponsor us with free trips for maintaining a professional business. I have seen not one agent or client get ripped off or done wrong by Primerica. And all the clients I have helped are happy. The products I provided them was better than what they had before. And I showed them step by step why it's better. So you want me to listen in training class to see how much about finances am I learning? For one, I don't have to attend anymore because I am already fully licensed and trained. Also I've learned more about finances in the first few months than the average person ever learns in their life time. There's not a whole lot to know about finances. It's just that most big companies are out there to take advantage of the middle income consumers by using big words and terms because the lack of financial education consumer's have. I don't like using big fancy terms and words to my clients. I explain everything to them clearly and in a language in which they can understand, so that they will understand exactly what they are getting into. For the products we market, I know exactly how they work, how it's better for the client, and at the same time I can teach clients the same thing. And they learn to avoid money hungry low down companies that's out to eat them up.

1. Teron says "primerica is BACKED by Citigroup". Absolutely not. It is owned by Citigroup. If primerica runs into hard times and is in danger of folding Citigroup has absolutely no legal obligation whatsoever to back the insurance policies in force at the time. They only have a legal and moral obligation and based on the $2 billion they just paid out in fines and class action settlements because of ethical and moral missteps, I wouldn't count on it. 2. Teron says $200 isn't much to get started in a business. Thats true. It isn't. What is a lot of money is how much you lose in commissions you could have made had you investigated the market and found other opportunities selling better products. Those wouldn't have cost you any more than $200 to get going either. 3. Teron says he is making $7k a month after only 10 months. I won't call you a liar. Its possible you are. What I do know is had you investigated the marketplace first you would have been making $15k a month by selling the exact same things to the exact same clients, and recruiting the exact same people to your team. In addition, your clients would have more death protection and lower loan intersst and fees. 4. Teron says "primerica sells a dream". Yep. They do it well too. No one said the marketing concept at primerica wasn't sheer genius. Sell overpriced insurance and overpriced loans to people and tell them they will become millionairres for buying them. The real concept behind primerica is A.L. Williams figured out a system to convince people to sell the first 6-7 policies to close freinds and relatives that anyone can sell, and to get them to do it for no compensation. 5. Teron says Citigroup is the only company worth over a trillion bucks. AIG and Allianz claim the same thing. Who is lying? The one thing I know is primerica itself isn't worth anything close to a trillion bucks. Primerica is who stands behind thweir products, not Citigroup. AIG and Allianz are worth a trillion bucks each, and they stand directly behind the products, not some holding company that has the option of abandoning primerica's clients if they so choose. 6. Teron says primerica offers the best service. Maybe they offer the best servicing but not service. I have replaced at least 3 dozen primerica policies in my career and each and every one of those people said the exact same thing....."after he sold me the policy I never heard from primerica again except to get my monthly bill". Whether the agent who sold you your plan is now on a caribbean beach sipping mai tais or back to selling shoes (the scenario in 99.9% of the cases) the client doesn't get continuing service. 7. Teron says he is "fully trained". In what? You are fully trained to market one loan product that is grossly overpriced, and one set of term products that are greatly overpriced. What you are trained in is a cookie cutter method to find someone not too sophisticated in the financial world and sell him a bill of goods that literally will cost that person 10s of $1000s of dollars in excess premium and interest payments over 20 years. Thats ALL you are trained to do. Not only that you are only getting about half the commission you could make selling good products to those same people. Primerica is the most cynical marketing operation I have ever seen in my life. They successfully sell a dream. What they do in reality is exploit the people selling for them and the middle class they claim to be on a jihad to save.

Why do you assume that all the people who post here are ex PFS reps? I am not nor have I ever been involved with PFS. I am an independent advisor. Now you'll probably say that I'm pissed because a PFS agent took my business. You're wrong again. I have never lost a client to Primerica although a few of you dopes have tried. The only reason I post here is because one of you PFS reps sat in front of one of my clients and accused me of ripping him off because he had some permanent insurance products. This guy who knew absolutely nothing about financial planning and had only been licensed for a month had the balls to tell my client I was a crook. I could go into how this PFS dope would have cost my client tens of thousands of dollars but I won't. The plain fact is that the vast majority of PFS reps lead people to believe that because Citigroup owns them that PFS reps are more than salesmen. You guys are not anything other than salesmen with a few products in your arsenal. All you have are one term product that doesn't come close to the value of other companies, a mortgage program where you're taught that interest doesn't matter and a bunch of run of the mill mutual funds and you think that this makes you experts. Even though many people have demonstrated that you don't really own your business with PFS and that the company retains all the decision making power, you still think you own your business. The truth is you can do everything that you can do with PFS and offer better products and make more money. The catch is that you have to study financial planning and really become an expert. But your fearless leaders at PFS say that you should just recruit and not waste your time actually learning anything other than the training they give you which is nothing more than plugging numbers into their software and then selling the two or three products you have. The next time you're at one of your training sessions, count how many minutes of actual financial training you get compared to the time you spend clapping hands and chanting RVP that's for me. Until you get more actual training than motivation, you will not be an expert in financial planning, insurance or investing. Hey I don't care what you guys do but don't pretend to be something you're not.

Those of you who've tried Primerica and have failed, who can you blame? You cannot blame Primerica, you have yourself to blame. I've been working with them for 10 months now. I'm fully licensed, and fully trained. I make 7k a month working about 10-15 hours a week. Also I am in school. I will not post any pay stubs because I don't feel it's neccessary to prove how much I make to a skeptic. Primerica offers a business opportunity. Do you really think $200 is a lot of money for a complete financial education? 93% of the nation are in debt because the lack of financial education. And there is nothing better than million dollar earners in the company training you how to make millions of dollars. A complete education of finances and entrepreneurship is worth much more than $200. In the corporate world, most workshops on how to run a small business costs anywhere from 3 to 5 thousand dollars easily. People must understand success doesn't come easy, not overnight, nor is it just gonna fall in your hand some day. Besides, if you decided to run your own small business I guarantee you will pay well much more than $200. And running your own business, there are no guarantees. Big companies can and will wipe you out in a heart beat because the lack of entrepreneur experience. Bill Gates, Steve Balmer, Sam Walton etc. Do you think they became millionaires overnight? Do you think it came easy for them? Do you think they didn't have to struggle, Do you think they didn't have to make some big sacrifices? But lastly do you think it was all worth it? I bet you'd agree. Primerica sells a dream, rather than just an opportunity. It's up to you what you make of it. About commissions. All companies in the world are commission only. If the company you worked for stopped making money, then you wouldn't have a job. It's just that the company you are employed at chooses how much they want to pay you and put it into a time bases of how much you are worth. Which isn't fair, nor do you have any chance to get better. In any business, whether it's with Primerica or not it's how bad you want to be successful. Primerica is just a very good tool to give you a head start in building a successful business. The name alone is already successful because Primerica is backed by CitiGroup. CitiGroup truly is the largest finiancial company world. It's been proven. Advertized in finacial magazines, tops companies ratings, and from consumer reports. No other financial company holds over a Trillion dollars in assets. People are just disgusted with themselves, don't believe that they can really be successful. You cannot blame Primerica because they didn't pay you what you didn't work for. If you want to trade hours for dollars for the rest of your life, get a job. If you want long term success, freedom, financial independence, and for geenrations to come, build a business. Even if it's not with Primerica. But I guarantee you, it doesn't get easier than Primerica when it comes to building a business. Very low investments, free entrepreneurhsip training, no franchise fees, and competitve products (The best services in my opinion). Primerica specifically markets the middle income and show them how to get out of debt, stay out of debt, and become entrepreneurs. Who wants to be an employee for life? I know that I'm not going to physically wear and tear my body to make someone else rich. I will work very hard for a few years to build my own business and enjoy life from there on out. And so far Primerica is making it happen. Those who says they were scammed by Primerica are lying. CitiGroup will not allow any of it's subsidiaries to use any unfair trade practices. Tell them to prove it. The company's credibility hasn't been decreased. People act like little babies, they cry and blame other people for their own actions. They give up too easily, and won't work hard themself, but will donate almost 65,000 hours of their life to some job. And they still wrestle with debt, financial challeneges, still must settle for the minimum, and still not guaranteed to retire. That's a very sad life, or is it just they don't have a life? Is it really worth it? Are you willing to go through all of that to build someone elses business when you can build your own. I do understand that there are some highly paid employees, like doctosrs, lawyers etc but even they are still employees. If you can't travel whenever you please, take off whenever you want, spend as much time with your family as you want, then you are living in captivity. You don't have a life. People will not understand true freedom until they are actually free. That's what Primerica teaches us. Also that's why the average person is broke, cannot make ends meet. They are slaves of their jobs, and are more loyal to their job than their family. It doesn't have to be this way. Most people are too lazy to sacrifice 3 or 4 years of their life to make something extraordinary happen that will last generations. If you do the ordinary, you get the ordinary. If you do the extraordinary, you get the extraordinary. And it doesn't take a degree or special education to accomplish it. TB

**AMERICA, THESE CAN'T BE THE PEOPLE YOU WANT HANDLING YOUR FINANCIAL AFFAIRS! ** In the year 2005, the federal fair market rent for a two-bedroom unit in the Cleveland/Lorain/Elyria metro area was $703.00. My rent is $650.00; a $53.00 (or 8.15%) discount! Again, more Primerica IGNORANCE! Rob, how do you know that all of my tenants are lower income people? Did I ever say that; I don't think so! By the way, they're NOT! Also, I have 0% vacancy; I must be doing something right! Who said my apartments were the slums, do you know personally where my apartments are located, their maintenance; their FMV, NO TO THAT ALSO! I do know this; you're not good with analogies, so don't use them. Twenty-five (25) positions times thirty (30) teams equals seven hundred and fifty (750) roster spots any day of the week, NOT 150! Unfortunately for the Primerica clientele; you may be handling someone's account. The difference is that there aren't only 150 top spots (25 positions times 30 major league teams) to fill in the PFS big leagues. It is dumb for you to make assumptions toward anything I do. I really do not have to defend my honor to you concerning my rental properties because you're about as asinine as the Primerica opportunity you present. P.S. Are you the same Rob from Survivor and Amazing Race...lol

Hey Rob, You're from Boston and you think that $625 a month for rent is expensive? I looked up the stats and rents in Boston for a 2 bedroom apt are $800 per month in high crime neighborhoods and up to $1500 per month. I think $625 is a deal don't you? You PFS guys are always saying that price is only an issue in the absence of value so who are you to say that Jay is taking advantage of his tenants when PFS sells overpriced insurance with less features than other companies and that your reps have no clue as to the complexities of the uses of insurance or long term financial planning?

I'd be interested in hearing what Jay's tenants think of him as a landlord. With his gross income of $15,000 per month for 24 units, they're renting at about $625/month. Think they come with a water view? You don't seem to have a problem lining your pockets with the hard earned money of lower income folks paying rent to you, why do you have such a problem with a company that just might try to help them get out of your slums? To net this thread out there are 2 guys, for the most part, leading this charge against PFS (Jay and the guy from NB, NJ). There are also a number of folks who have been recruited, but for some reason the opportunity may not have clicked. Since we're in Major League Baseball's preseason I'll use this anaolgy. Is it unfair to the guys in AA and AAA that the major league guys make a higher % of the total dollars baseball pays out each year, or that some players didn't make AA or AAA after try outs? No, you have to earn a spot at the top. PFS is no different in that regard. The difference is that there aren't only 150 top spots (25 positions times 30 major league teams) to fill in the PFS big leagues. To follow up on another poster's reply, the $199 covers the training to get you licensed. It is not a source of income for the company. Life's not a dress rehearsal. I pay more in taxes, not from Primerica but I've paid my $199 and am looking at the business to reduce my travel, than Jay makes in a year. To listen to him rant and lecture is tedious. Whether you like to hear it or not, PFS is an example of what makes America great. Everyone has the same opportunity, its what you make of it that counts.

I have to agree somewhat with the criticts on this matter. You're not building a corporate entity with primerica. If that were the case you'd have some sort of control over the t&c on loans, policies, and such. What you are building is basically a sales team. You can in fact sell your sales team and the office you work out of. Basically selling your rights to hierarchy (pardon misspellings... not in the mood for spell check today) and potential commission checks. I think if we are all upfront an honest about our opportunity and not try to justify calling a horse a duck we'll have fewer dropouts and far fewer criticts. As you can see, with the amount of effort put forward by honest reps we still have plenty of criticts and victims of abuse of our system. It's ok to say "this isn't the only way to do it but it's a great way". Any successful person will tell you that it's not just the amount of people in your team that will make you successful, but how well they know their product. As independant reps of this company we owe it to the people that are giving us this opportunity a good name in return. As a suggestion to those complaining on here about being falsely led in to a meeting thinking it's for a job... You should report the rep in question to primerica as well. Not to mention the authorities. As a rep I would do the same even if it were my own recruit.

Hi Nate: When I read your comments, I just shook my head. The number one reason why is because you describe Primerica verbatim in your definition of a pyramid scheme. The only exception is the guise that Primerica offers life insurance and financial services products. In fact; their entire promotion system is set up around success in recruiting and not merely sales production. The second reason; I have read around five different descriptions of what the $199.00 is for from Primerica reps. INTERESTING! Third; it seems funny that you are disappointed in the authors of these stories because Primerica presented a horrible package to them whether it is in recruiting, compensation, or the products they market. ALSO INTERESTING! It seems like you're disappointed in the wrong person (or entity). Maybe one day Primerica (and its reps) will step up and take the blame for the rapport they have. Fourth; there is a HUGE difference between a pyramid scheme and corporate hierarchy. Please stop attempting to equate the two! Supervisors, Managers, Controllers, etc. incomes are NOT contingent upon the success (or lack thereof) of the operational portion of a company. For more information, read my comments above. It is getting ridiculous to here someone make this statement. Fifth; you sound like the typical, tape-recorder, brainwashed, clueless, misinformed, etc., etc., etc., Primerica jock. We all have had this story read to us before, turn the page!

You can take them into small claims court.

Matt in Iowa......here are some options; 1.) Call him again and threaten to file a small claims suit against him if he doesn't respond immediately. If he gets a judgement against him on this type of matter and he is securities licensed it will cause him aggravation far in excess of the $200. 2.) Threaten to file a complaint against him with the Iowa Dept of Insurance. 3.) If he is already a primerica dropout (VERY LIKELY) and doesn't care call the primerica home office, ask for the compliance officer, and threaten to file complaints against them with the Iowa Dept of Insurance AND the N.A.S.D.

I was recently in the same situation as most of you, confused and didn't have a clue what i was getting into, however, i signed that paper for the 200 bucks and told the guy that i would call him on whether so submit it if i was for sure gonna do it, i called him the next day and left a message saying i wasnt going to do it, and i still got billed for it, he never answers his phone any more, and he said hed email me about the class, well he never emailed me or anything, so i paid for some processing and a class that i couldnt even get the information about when and where. Does anyone know what i should do or what i cant do? Thanks

I was recently in the same situation as most of you, confused and didn't have a clue what i was getting into, however, i signed that paper for the 200 bucks and told the guy that i would call him on whether so submit it if i was for sure gonna do it, i called him the next day and left a message saying i wasnt going to do it, and i still got billed for it, he never answers his phone any more, and he said hed email me about the class, well he never emailed me or anything, so i paid for some processing and a class that i couldnt even get the information about when and where. Does anyone know what i should do or what i cant do? Thanks

I was recently in the same situation as most of you, confused and didn't have a clue what i was getting into, however, i signed that paper for the 200 bucks and told the guy that i would call him on whether so submit it if i was for sure gonna do it, i called him the next day and left a message saying i wasnt going to do it, and i still got billed for it, he never answers his phone any more, and he said hed email me about the class, well he never emailed me or anything, so i paid for some processing and a class that i couldnt even get the information about when and where. Does anyone know what i should do or what i cant do? Thanks

I was recently in the same situation as most of you, confused and didn't have a clue what i was getting into, however, i signed that paper for the 200 bucks and told the guy that i would call him on whether so submit it if i was for sure gonna do it, i called him the next day and left a message saying i wasnt going to do it, and i still got billed for it, he never answers his phone any more, and he said hed email me about the class, well he never emailed me or anything, so i paid for some processing and a class that i couldnt even get the information about when and where. Does anyone know what i should do or what i cant do? Thanks

The corporate structure given by Nate in his comment is a TOTEM POLE. Its a direct line down. MLMs are pyramid structures. The best way I can explain the difference is if someone gets a job as a cashier at Wal mart and then they get their buddy on doing the same thing, the first person doesn't get a cut of everything the recruited buddy sells. The one thing all MLMs have in common is that the prices of what is sold is overpriced to the consumer. It has to be to support the pyramid commission structure.

The corporate structure given by Nate in his comment is a TOTEM POLE. Its a direct line down. MLMs are pyramid structures. The best way I can explain the difference is if someone gets a job as a cashier at Wal mart and then they get their buddy on doing the same thing, the first person doesn't get a cut of everything the recruited buddy sells. The one thing all MLMs have in common is that the prices of what is sold is overpriced to the consumer. It has to be to support the pyramid commission structure.

My name is Nate and I've been w/ the company for about 4 yrs. I work at the home office 8-5 m-f. The selling side about 5 months. I started in nov. of 05'. I'm strictly part time now. I will start off first by saying THIS BUSINESS IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. 1. Please understand this isn't a pyramid. This is a TRUE definition of a pyramid: Pyramid schemes are illegal scams in which participants invest a large amount of money in exchange for the promise of receiving profits by recruiting additional participants to make a similar investment. Pyramid promoters sometimes try to make their schemes resemble multilevel marketing methods by introducing a product line. However, little or no effort is made to actually market the products to consumers. Instead, compensation is paid for recruiting. Pay attention to the last 2 sentences. We have close to 1 billion dollars in term life insurance IN FORCE! It's not like we're just getting people involved and them not doing anything. Yes, a lot of people quit, not b/c they system doesn't work but they wont' work THE SYSTEM. Most people try to overcomplicate this business. It's quite easy, actually. I don't know the numbers on investments or smart solutions, so I'm not going to put any #'s out there, but i'm sure if they're anything like our term #'s we're doing well. When you "recruit" someone into the business the $199 is a BACKGROUND CHECK! That does NOT MEAN you will get ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY. It simply allows US (primerica) to make sure YOU ARE NOT A CRIMINAL. Anyone that doesn't pass the background check will not work for the company. Also, if you go on a certain # of appts. (usually w/ friends or family to SHOW THEM what you do) that money will be refunded. It's a scholarship program, if you will. To make 199 in this business is very easy. EVERYONE needs life insurance, IMO. You must protect your most important asset. YOU! Some may disagree, that's fine. Some of the stories disappoint me. EVERY COMPANY EVER MADE has rotten apples. In a perfect world we would have agents following the compliance guidelines all day/everyday, but we don't live in a perfect world. Some people insist on learning the hard way, and primerica is very diligent w/ dealing w/ misconduct, How do I know this? I work at the home OFFICE. In fact, I'm involved a great deal w/ how to handle certain misconduct. Unfortunately, we can't catch everybody. Again, we're not perfect, no company is. About compensation. YOU GET WHAT YOU WORK FOR! This company has no free rides. Unlike "corporate america" where you get lazy people making more money than you b/c they've "been there longer" or have "seniority". It's B/S man. Primerica is a system to allow you to get equal compensation for equal efforts. Going back to the pyramid thing. If you have an open mind you'll get this, if not, i'm sure you'll try to find some flaw, but I guarantee you, most will agree. I get this A LOT when talking to people about the business. "oh it's a pyramid etc" i don't want to work for someone at the top whos making all the money. Well, ANY and EVERY COMPANY OR JOB has SOMEONE AT THE TOP making the money. FOR ex.. 1. customer serv rep. entry level 2. they have a manager, coordinator, coach etc... 3. a director, someone over all managers and below 4. a vp 5. a president 5. an owner/ceo/cfo etc... THAT IS A PYRAMID TOO! The owner makes money OFF EVERY PERSON UNDER HIM. Why? B/C if he didn't have someone running the business HE/SHE MAKES NO MONEY. It's that simple. The only difference w/ this and primerica or any other MLM is that you're paid on commission and not "guaranteed" a paycheck, which is another misconception. In working w/ the business i'm so surprised at how many people think that they're job is friggin' bulletproof. Ask the 10k bellsouth employees who have been working in downtown atlanta that question who've been there 27 + years who just found out they'll all be unemployed within the next 2yrs. Primerica is the solution for people who are sick and tired of being sick and tired w/ their b/s corporate jobs. people who are fed up for workign for someone whom doesn't appreciate them. Some might say "well that's life" and choose to give up on their dreams. That's fine. I'm not here to judge, but i'll be d@mned if I work 8-5 til' I'm 65. I want to own a business and be wealthy and help others do the same. It's sad most of you had a bad experience w/ our company, again, I can't speak for everyone, only myself. Primerica has given a single 26yr old like me a chance to do something special by helping people GET OUT OF DEBT and get paid for it. Will I be one of the 50 + millionaires? I hope so, if not, hey at LEAST I gave it a shot. As opposed to just "sucking it up" and let others dictate my income. Most people whom are just bashing the company and making decisions based on what they read on this website are not the people we're looking for anyway. So, spend your time indulging in your "ripoffreport" website and i'll see you guys at the top. :) have a good day.

I can see the perspective of being on the recieving end of an attempt to sucker someone in... or lack of understanding someone's own system to call a horse an ox. More or less my message isn't only directed at your comments, it's also yet another rebuttal so people investigating can get a full glimpse of the system they are looking at. My comments don't only go out to onlookers they are also directed at all people in the mlm world. It irritates the hell out of me getting invited to "job interviews" that are actually mlm. Being someone thats open minded about mlm even if I liked the company I wouldn't sign up under that rep. I'll clearly state, primerica isn't for everyone. If you don't have the drive to compete against others, and the will to do so in spite of possible lack of results then not only is primerica not for you but the business world all together isn't. Surely even someone coming from the other (meaning the successful end of the market) would have to aggree that jobs are for those that don't want to risk for the possibility of no gain or even loss. And that is not my way of saying those who don't do primerica are only suited for jobs. My point being that every aspect of our economy actually needs to be there. We still need people to work jobs, we still need people doing mlm trying to do "revolutionary" "new" things in marketing, we will always need business owners and lawyers. The fact that something is difficult to do doesn't make it impossible. For too long americans have been losing their sense of adventure and have become content with that which is just handed over without a fuss. Hence the need for financial services (to which by my count so far there are 3 others just like primerica doing the same thing). The country is in fact in debt as a whole. People are spending far more than the are earning and/or saving. I am basically here saying that the solution isn't finding the small flaws in the systems that are being built. The solution lies in building new systems with fewer flaws than the ones in place. Unless someone already has the perfect system that can cater all the way from upper class tax sheltering, to lower class income, all the way over to solving the worst problems there are.... The middle class debt to income ratio. Since nobody seems to have such a solution the griping gets nobody anywhere.

Your rebuttal has already been refuted; if you would have read the report (or just my responses) you would understand the reasoning behind the economic theories that ARE used in society to predict financial activity. That's the basis of finance; using theories and principles to predict future values. Come on that is not hard to grasp. You know what Clint; I didn't use some masterful, complex plan to attain the wealth that I have now. My advice to people is, find a legitimate plan and stick to it, balls to the wall. I came to this place because I was originally told that this was a real estate gig. Once I got there, they told me that it was a financial services gig, I really don't care to keep telling this story, but from what I experienced at Primerica, I felt the system wasn't built to help the recruits. Like I said before, I didn't need Primerica, but I was looking to use it for my clients. I searched and found this site, then shared my experience. What troubled me was that individuals would come on the site and try to bash you because you had a negative experience with Primerica. That's my problem! So I made it my business to spread the truth about this company. The truth being, Primerica is registered with dsa.org a MLM association. It was not told to anyone that this was a MLM business; it's supposed to be a financial services company, but that's only its guise. That's not the only truth, but you would definitely have to read my reports to find others. Look Clint, I don't care how you feel about me or Primerica. Why would I give you financial advice over the internet in a message board and I don't even know your financial situation. Although I have a finance degree, I am not a financial advisor, I am an accountant (hence the CFM/CMA). You do what makes you happy, because I'm doing what makes me happy and making out pretty good.

Do you honestly think I have the time to site and read all the babble on this one listing of 500 out there? I'm sure your earnings speak for themself, however that does not change the fact you are stating a hypothesis as fact. When the fact remains you have nothing than a hypothesis. Which is defined as follows: hy?poth?e?sis n. pl. hy?poth?e?ses (-sz) 1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation. 2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption. 3. The antecedent of a conditional statement. Take special note to the end of #2. And assumption. A more interesting perspective on the term would be if you took a theory (which it's self is unproven scientifically) and cut out all supporting evidence... viola! You end up with a nice lightweight hypothesis! Better known as an educated guess. As I am well aware of the fact that you are educated that still doesn't account for lack of investigation. My question is what is in it for you? Nothing is free, especially not information. If you are in fact extending effort to "misinformed people" then what would then be the exceptional alternative? If in fact your credential claims are true I'm sure everyone that reads your posts would be happy to follow your advice, myself included. Don't forget the liability on advice from accredited investors to non-accredited. Thats one thing everyone forgets about opportunities for new entrepreneurs, they aren't legally allowed to get in to the true high yields yet. So where else does one begin?

I haven't been on here for a while now; but I see nothing has changed. Still the same Primerica reps that can't see the forest for the trees; don't have a clue; don't take the time to read; or do any worth while research, etc. Clint I have written extensive reports conerning Primerica and myself. Because you've failed to read; I will give you an opportunity to read this short rebuttal to your comments--namely the comments toward my financial situation. Age: 25 Education: B.B.A. in Finance CFM/CMA Net Worth: $1.434 million (approximately) (from assets) Source: Real Estate Investing, Investments Income: $250K/per year (gross) I don't give a ____ what you think about my grading credentials, I have attained above and beyond the success of the average Primerica RVP and I AM helping individuals who are driven and educated along the way. HOW YOU SAY, well believe me it's not by selling them a pyramid scheme! As a matter of fact; I'm a firm believer of "It's not how you start, it's how you finish"! However; if you start with a bad plan, you'll probably finish that way if you don't fix the plan. The rest of my reports refuted your comments before you even wrote them. Nothing further...

After reading about the company on this website, I told Primerica I wasn't interested because of what I had read and that I didn't want to recruit. Here is their answer to me. We make our $ the same way as the rest of the industry, if you help a client in any of our product lines (mortgages, securities, Long Term Care, Legal protection, annuities, debt consolidation, or insurance) you are compensated. If you want to develop an agency of your own, you have that option and obviously Citigroup pays a premium to that person since they are in a leadership role. Same as the rest of the industry or corporate America. Only difference is Primerica allows you to decide what size business you want to have and increases your compensation accordingly. I don't get paid to recruit, only return I get on a recruit is if I invest the time and energy to teach them our business and they get licensed and help people. I worked for 2+ years part-time helping families 1 by 1. Now I focus most of my efforts on training additional reps so I can help far more people even if it's indirectly. In addition if you don't have the character qualities and integrity that I'm looking for I won't recruit you anyways, because the cost is way to high for me because of the time I will pour into mentoring and developing you. If you have additional concerns I'd be happy to meet with you on Friday. Sincerely,

After reading about the company on this website, I told Primerica I wasn't interested because of what I had read and that I didn't want to recruit. Here is their answer to me. We make our $ the same way as the rest of the industry, if you help a client in any of our product lines (mortgages, securities, Long Term Care, Legal protection, annuities, debt consolidation, or insurance) you are compensated. If you want to develop an agency of your own, you have that option and obviously Citigroup pays a premium to that person since they are in a leadership role. Same as the rest of the industry or corporate America. Only difference is Primerica allows you to decide what size business you want to have and increases your compensation accordingly. I don't get paid to recruit, only return I get on a recruit is if I invest the time and energy to teach them our business and they get licensed and help people. I worked for 2+ years part-time helping families 1 by 1. Now I focus most of my efforts on training additional reps so I can help far more people even if it's indirectly. In addition if you don't have the character qualities and integrity that I'm looking for I won't recruit you anyways, because the cost is way to high for me because of the time I will pour into mentoring and developing you. If you have additional concerns I'd be happy to meet with you on Friday. Sincerely,

After reading about the company on this website, I told Primerica I wasn't interested because of what I had read and that I didn't want to recruit. Here is their answer to me. We make our $ the same way as the rest of the industry, if you help a client in any of our product lines (mortgages, securities, Long Term Care, Legal protection, annuities, debt consolidation, or insurance) you are compensated. If you want to develop an agency of your own, you have that option and obviously Citigroup pays a premium to that person since they are in a leadership role. Same as the rest of the industry or corporate America. Only difference is Primerica allows you to decide what size business you want to have and increases your compensation accordingly. I don't get paid to recruit, only return I get on a recruit is if I invest the time and energy to teach them our business and they get licensed and help people. I worked for 2+ years part-time helping families 1 by 1. Now I focus most of my efforts on training additional reps so I can help far more people even if it's indirectly. In addition if you don't have the character qualities and integrity that I'm looking for I won't recruit you anyways, because the cost is way to high for me because of the time I will pour into mentoring and developing you. If you have additional concerns I'd be happy to meet with you on Friday. Sincerely,

After reading about the company on this website, I told Primerica I wasn't interested because of what I had read and that I didn't want to recruit. Here is their answer to me. We make our $ the same way as the rest of the industry, if you help a client in any of our product lines (mortgages, securities, Long Term Care, Legal protection, annuities, debt consolidation, or insurance) you are compensated. If you want to develop an agency of your own, you have that option and obviously Citigroup pays a premium to that person since they are in a leadership role. Same as the rest of the industry or corporate America. Only difference is Primerica allows you to decide what size business you want to have and increases your compensation accordingly. I don't get paid to recruit, only return I get on a recruit is if I invest the time and energy to teach them our business and they get licensed and help people. I worked for 2+ years part-time helping families 1 by 1. Now I focus most of my efforts on training additional reps so I can help far more people even if it's indirectly. In addition if you don't have the character qualities and integrity that I'm looking for I won't recruit you anyways, because the cost is way to high for me because of the time I will pour into mentoring and developing you. If you have additional concerns I'd be happy to meet with you on Friday. Sincerely,

Yolanda, I accept the word of the EDitorial staff as final as they're able to check the IP nos.

Define for me what someone could do at primerica financial services that would be unethical to get to the top. If you were to file false mortgage applications that would not be unethical but illegal. Slamming people with insurance policies they didn't buy is impossible. And why in gods name would you put your own money in to somebody elses retirement account? And I'm having trouble understanding how 5% of primerica's reps being at the top would cause a glass ceiling for anybody not already there. Entrepreneur Magazine's April 2005 features a column written about Movex, a moving company started by a man living with his parents and having no actual money to start out with. Movex was started during a time of struggling economy in a dormant industry (meaning there was no significant growth) And in this dormant industry this company grew from $3.6 million in revinue in 2003 to $6 in 2004. That right there proves that success can occour without significant advantage or wrongdoing. My numbers are simple. I have yet to get a check from primerica due to my lack of effort thus far. To answer your question about how a rep outperforms an already outstanding performer. You talk to more people, you understand your product/service as well as possible, you pay attention to your recruits and their needs to succeed, you pay attention to your clientel and their needs for financial consultation. The end result is that your hypothesis is nothing but a hypothesis. The entrepreneurial spirit is strong among the active reps of primerica financial services and your filing a ripoff report based on cynicism (meaning you know only cost and not value) is nothing more than a criticism on people in america having the ability to dream of making the lives of themselfs and others around them better. I myself have seen the lifes of those in my upline change before my eyes as they participated in attaining their licences, doing business, and making goals to do even better. These examples are of people who have not only changed their financial status but their whole outlook on life. Their world is better because they found something worthwhile to do with their time. They are not people I heard of, or friends of friends of uncles cousins. They are my best friends, people I grew up with. And my reason for being a rep now. What exactly are your grading credentials? I for one give myself an f. I have been in for over 6 months and have yet to so much as schedule my life insurance exam. But that is a shame on me, not primerica. I in return invite you to share your wealth building expertise. I find only the wealthy worthy of judging a system to be good or not. If only the advice of the rich can make you rich what will the advice of the poor make you? When franchises were first introduced they were nearly outlawed. And now are the most common form of business. And was equally as heavily criticised as multi level/direct marketing is today. My final comments are that the ship doesn't turn back. Once it sets sail it's gone.

I have posted on this site before about my own bad experiences about Primerica so I have no reason to lie about this. John and Brett are INDEED 2 separate people. I have had both of them in my house while I was still living in Ohio. I actually worked out of the same office as both of them in Columbus. As far the mispellings being the same, etc. I have been chatting on the internet for years. I have come across many many people and have read many websites where the same words are mispelled in the same way. Do a google search for the mispelled words and you'll find it's a very common thing. I should note that 20 something aged males are the biggest culprits for this misspelling. Both Brett and John fall into this category. Whatever your views on Primerica, good or bad, you are speaking the truth as you know it. The truth is the most important thing here. I personally don't feel that Primerica is for me and I do feel that I was cheated in my experience with Primerica. As far as the products go, I can't comment on them. I never bought them and I wasn't able to sell not even one of them during my 10 months with Primerica so I don't know what is or is not the best deal. But with having the truth in mind, I only wanted to say that I know for a fact that John and Brett are two separate people. Just stating the facts as I know them.

It appears you're pretty good at spinning fairy tales. Quoting: "First of all I would just like to say that all reps of Primerica are independent business owners and have to file a 1099 schedule A for there taxes. It is not Primericas problem for who does that or not." Here's what your coworker, Ron (from Bonita, CA) says about that: "Actually, RVPs CAN qualify for CONTRACTUAL ownership of their businesses. Many, many of them have done so. Your point is that Primerica Reps are loosely told that they own their own business, and that is a misrepresentation. Technically, they don't own their business in the traditional sense, until they can qualify for the contractual award." In plain English, Stephen, you're misrepresenting and if you have an issue with that, take it up with Ron. "I am sure there have been many people unsuccessfull in Primerica." Over 100,000 agents leave every year. "He has only been with the company for 5 months, and has allready been promoted to District Leader, has 3 ACTIVE people under him and has seen 5 or 6 checks for over $1000!" Great BS. Care to document this or should I even bother to hold my breath. "Meanwhile he still works his full time job which he would like to leave soon." He's been promoted to District Leader and he still can't leave his full-time job. My oh my. "Fourth, nobody claims to be financial experts right off the bat." But that's what consumers need, otherwise why bother with Crimerica? "The system is set up where all the rep does is collect the information and put it in to the computer and the computer makes the Financial Needs Analysis itself. All we have to do is present the data and give them the Primerica Solution!" Two points on this: First I wouldn't trust my future to a machine nor a computer. Second why bother having an agent if it can all be handled through the computer? Let me remind people and let visitors know that the average agent makes less than $6,000 a year in commission. If you check further on Crimerica, the top people, its executives/ officers, have never started off as agents who are the ones who make the real money (and have the power). Anybody who disagrees with this I again issue my challenge to come up with the names of 12 executives and/or officers who have started off as agents with Crimerica and I'll say it again that Crimerica is a pyramid-schemed, fraudulent company who send shills such as Stephen who's doing a ridiculous job of trying to mislead people on this site which is designed to help victims. So Stephen why not prepare a pamphlet to distribute at the next Crimerica meeting to let the newbies what they're really in for?

It appears you're pretty good at spinning fairy tales. Quoting: "First of all I would just like to say that all reps of Primerica are independent business owners and have to file a 1099 schedule A for there taxes. It is not Primericas problem for who does that or not." Here's what your coworker, Ron (from Bonita, CA) says about that: "Actually, RVPs CAN qualify for CONTRACTUAL ownership of their businesses. Many, many of them have done so. Your point is that Primerica Reps are loosely told that they own their own business, and that is a misrepresentation. Technically, they don't own their business in the traditional sense, until they can qualify for the contractual award." In plain English, Stephen, you're misrepresenting and if you have an issue with that, take it up with Ron. "I am sure there have been many people unsuccessfull in Primerica." Over 100,000 agents leave every year. "He has only been with the company for 5 months, and has allready been promoted to District Leader, has 3 ACTIVE people under him and has seen 5 or 6 checks for over $1000!" Great BS. Care to document this or should I even bother to hold my breath. "Meanwhile he still works his full time job which he would like to leave soon." He's been promoted to District Leader and he still can't leave his full-time job. My oh my. "Fourth, nobody claims to be financial experts right off the bat." But that's what consumers need, otherwise why bother with Crimerica? "The system is set up where all the rep does is collect the information and put it in to the computer and the computer makes the Financial Needs Analysis itself. All we have to do is present the data and give them the Primerica Solution!" Two points on this: First I wouldn't trust my future to a machine nor a computer. Second why bother having an agent if it can all be handled through the computer? Let me remind people and let visitors know that the average agent makes less than $6,000 a year in commission. If you check further on Crimerica, the top people, its executives/ officers, have never started off as agents who are the ones who make the real money (and have the power). Anybody who disagrees with this I again issue my challenge to come up with the names of 12 executives and/or officers who have started off as agents with Crimerica and I'll say it again that Crimerica is a pyramid-schemed, fraudulent company who send shills such as Stephen who's doing a ridiculous job of trying to mislead people on this site which is designed to help victims. So Stephen why not prepare a pamphlet to distribute at the next Crimerica meeting to let the newbies what they're really in for?

It appears you're pretty good at spinning fairy tales. Quoting: "First of all I would just like to say that all reps of Primerica are independent business owners and have to file a 1099 schedule A for there taxes. It is not Primericas problem for who does that or not." Here's what your coworker, Ron (from Bonita, CA) says about that: "Actually, RVPs CAN qualify for CONTRACTUAL ownership of their businesses. Many, many of them have done so. Your point is that Primerica Reps are loosely told that they own their own business, and that is a misrepresentation. Technically, they don't own their business in the traditional sense, until they can qualify for the contractual award." In plain English, Stephen, you're misrepresenting and if you have an issue with that, take it up with Ron. "I am sure there have been many people unsuccessfull in Primerica." Over 100,000 agents leave every year. "He has only been with the company for 5 months, and has allready been promoted to District Leader, has 3 ACTIVE people under him and has seen 5 or 6 checks for over $1000!" Great BS. Care to document this or should I even bother to hold my breath. "Meanwhile he still works his full time job which he would like to leave soon." He's been promoted to District Leader and he still can't leave his full-time job. My oh my. "Fourth, nobody claims to be financial experts right off the bat." But that's what consumers need, otherwise why bother with Crimerica? "The system is set up where all the rep does is collect the information and put it in to the computer and the computer makes the Financial Needs Analysis itself. All we have to do is present the data and give them the Primerica Solution!" Two points on this: First I wouldn't trust my future to a machine nor a computer. Second why bother having an agent if it can all be handled through the computer? Let me remind people and let visitors know that the average agent makes less than $6,000 a year in commission. If you check further on Crimerica, the top people, its executives/ officers, have never started off as agents who are the ones who make the real money (and have the power). Anybody who disagrees with this I again issue my challenge to come up with the names of 12 executives and/or officers who have started off as agents with Crimerica and I'll say it again that Crimerica is a pyramid-schemed, fraudulent company who send shills such as Stephen who's doing a ridiculous job of trying to mislead people on this site which is designed to help victims. So Stephen why not prepare a pamphlet to distribute at the next Crimerica meeting to let the newbies what they're really in for?

It appears you're pretty good at spinning fairy tales. Quoting: "First of all I would just like to say that all reps of Primerica are independent business owners and have to file a 1099 schedule A for there taxes. It is not Primericas problem for who does that or not." Here's what your coworker, Ron (from Bonita, CA) says about that: "Actually, RVPs CAN qualify for CONTRACTUAL ownership of their businesses. Many, many of them have done so. Your point is that Primerica Reps are loosely told that they own their own business, and that is a misrepresentation. Technically, they don't own their business in the traditional sense, until they can qualify for the contractual award." In plain English, Stephen, you're misrepresenting and if you have an issue with that, take it up with Ron. "I am sure there have been many people unsuccessfull in Primerica." Over 100,000 agents leave every year. "He has only been with the company for 5 months, and has allready been promoted to District Leader, has 3 ACTIVE people under him and has seen 5 or 6 checks for over $1000!" Great BS. Care to document this or should I even bother to hold my breath. "Meanwhile he still works his full time job which he would like to leave soon." He's been promoted to District Leader and he still can't leave his full-time job. My oh my. "Fourth, nobody claims to be financial experts right off the bat." But that's what consumers need, otherwise why bother with Crimerica? "The system is set up where all the rep does is collect the information and put it in to the computer and the computer makes the Financial Needs Analysis itself. All we have to do is present the data and give them the Primerica Solution!" Two points on this: First I wouldn't trust my future to a machine nor a computer. Second why bother having an agent if it can all be handled through the computer? Let me remind people and let visitors know that the average agent makes less than $6,000 a year in commission. If you check further on Crimerica, the top people, its executives/ officers, have never started off as agents who are the ones who make the real money (and have the power). Anybody who disagrees with this I again issue my challenge to come up with the names of 12 executives and/or officers who have started off as agents with Crimerica and I'll say it again that Crimerica is a pyramid-schemed, fraudulent company who send shills such as Stephen who's doing a ridiculous job of trying to mislead people on this site which is designed to help victims. So Stephen why not prepare a pamphlet to distribute at the next Crimerica meeting to let the newbies what they're really in for?

Hello, my nam is Steve and I live in Massachusetts. First of all I would just like to say that all reps of Primerica are independent business owners and have to file a 1099 schedule A for there taxes. It is not Primericas problem for who does that or not. Second, the company pays you relativeley well when you do the work. This business is not for everyone! I am sure there have been many people unsuccessfull in Primerica. So what. Those that stay consistant will be succesfull. Primerica never promises that you will be a millionare, they never even promise that you will make $1. What they do show you is the opportunity of making part-time or full-time money. They train you and encourage you to grow all the time. They get you licensed in insurance and they reimburse you when you pass the exam! Third, my Father in-law got me interested in Primerica. He has only been with the company for 5 months, and has allready been promoted to District Leader, has 3 ACTIVE people under him and has seen 5 or 6 checks for over $1000! All this just woking part-time. Meanwhile he still works his full time job which he would like to leave soon. Anybody tht would leave there full time job right away is not too smart. Give it some time! Fourth, nobody claims to be financial experts right off the bat. All COMMITTED reps are licensed in lending, insurance, and many in securities. We abide by the laws and do not claim to know things if we are not properly licensed. The system is set up where all the rep does is collect the information and put it in to the computer and the computer makes the Financial Needs Analysis itself. All we have to do is present the data and give them the Primerica Solution! And if you were to talk to my upline and rvp you would know you are talking to an expert! Remember, just because you or anybody else were not succesfull in conducting your own business with Primerica, or even if you just had a bad experience does not mean its bad. Some people grow up to be coal miners, policemen, firefighters, actors, the list could go on, everybody does not excel the same or even get paid the same. This is my rebuttal on peoples comments.

I just wanted to point out that in my post I was in no way saying that I was interested in joining Primerica or in purchasing any of their products. I was merely pointing out that the google search did not give any great answers as the other poster indicated it would. Believe me, I have read plenty about Primerica. I have been involved in a number of direct sales companies, and researched many more in my quest to make more money so that I, as a single mom of 2, can support my family. I have found that the majority of these companies, although not all ripoffs, most of them will not make you any money, as you lose more money trying to promote your business than you can make in comissions. It just makes me ill to see a company like this selling false hope to people who are in a financial bind, and hoping to increase their income. Sure, some Primericans probably are making money, but the whole system is flawed, and I won't even go into the products. I am not one who knows a lot about finance, interest rates and insurance, but I have seen plenty of rebuttals on this site where folks have broken down the pros and cons of the smart loan, and other primerica products to see that it isn't all that it's cracked up to be. In addition, I take huge issue with the fact that so many on this site that reported were misled into thinking they were interviewing for a JOB, not a BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY. Believe me, I won't be spending $199 to alienate my friends and family trying to make a buck. I won't pry people for their personal financial information (which, of most people I know, including my family, are very private about their financial matters, and are not going to share these details with anyone outside of a legitimate, reputable bank, insurance office or accountant). I will choose, instead, to remain at my job that pays a somewhat decent salary and provides the health benefits I need for my children. I may never get rich with my J.O.B. (as you MLM people so affectionately like to call it) but at least I can feel good about myself knowing I put in an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. I can know that in the services that I provide (teaching children) I truly am helping people, not saying that I am helping them while trying to sell them useless products so that I can make a buck. I have to say, also, that in my quest for finding ways to make more income, it continues to floor me what some of theses companies will say to get people sucked in.

Wow, All I have to say is that ppl are so darn quick to jump to conclusions and criticize.I bet the people who post negative things about Primerica lead a very negative lifestyle, the complain and complain, but they never do anything to succeed. Those ppl ("Jay") who said negative things about Primerica are probably not very happy with their lives right now they have no goals and they have no desire, this is what primerica teaches you to have goals and to have the desire nescessary to achieve these goals. Primerica is a wonderful opportunity filled with many wonderful people on a great mission. Oh and did I mention Primerica is not for everybody, it is not for people who are negative and have no goals in life and do not allow themselves to look into an opportunity of a lifetime.

Jennifer, If you want to get accurate information. Here is the best thing you could do to find the right information on ANY company. Any website like ripoff, or buster site, is going to merely say things from people without credibility. If you go to the company's site you are going to come accross stuff that is company based. The company also publishes the negative stuff that credible sources say about them (It's law that they have to). So the best thing to do is to search out credible sources. Here is a few: Success Magazine July 2005 issue, AM Bests magazine "Bests Review January 2005 issue, Forbes Magazine March and April Issue 2003 2004 2005, Smart Money Magazine December 1999 issue, American Executive Magazine May 2005 issue. There are also a ton of websites that you can seek out that are totally neutral such as this particular artical from The Wall Street Journal I have pasted the link to it below, you could probably also go to The Wall Street Journal Website and ping "PRIMERICA" or "CITIGROUP" http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/17/business/17PLAC.html?ei=5007&en=683d783051115d87&ex=1373774400&adxnnl=1&partner=USERLAND&adxnnlx=1113711061-rhc5e9KRDsNLrKzMZyVygw You can also look up several books that have been bublished that mention the good things that Primerica does: Here are a few: David Bach a former employee of Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley wrote a book called "Start Late Finish Rich" which references Primerica/Citigroup. Robert Kiyosaki wrote a book called "Rich dad, Poor dad" which references all of the things that Primerica/Citigroup teaches people. George Boelcke wrote a book called "It's Your Money! Tools, Tips and Trick to Borrow Smarter and Pay it Off Quicker" which references the good things that Primerica/Citigroup does. Dr. Dennis Cauvier, and Alan Lysaught wrote a book called "The ABC's of Making Money" which reference the good things about Primerica/Citigroup. Bruce Sankin wrote a book "What All Stock And Mutual Fund Investors Should Know" which references Primerica and how they help bring that knowledge to everyone. Just to help you out a little bit. Also you can read pretty much any information from any financial professional, like suze orman for instance. She raves about the same things that Primerica teaches all the time both in her books as well as on her show. Or you can go to a financial planner, and compare information that they tell you with what Primericahas suggested, the only thing is that financial planners typically charge anywhere from $500 to $2000 for a consultation with them. Hope that helps.

Jennifer..let's say that you are a 35 year old single Mom in need of insurance. You want $250,000 and you're a non-smoker in good health. Do you want someone giving you a sales pitch designed to get you to buy a policy for $367 a year, or would you prefer an agent who will seek out any one of the 3-4 dozen A+ or higher rated companies that would charge you anywhere from a low of $187 per year to a high of $230? If you want to refinance do you want to pay 6.50% interest and 1 point or 7.00% and 2 points while being fed a line about how bi-weekly payment plans will shorten you loan length by 10 years without mentioning you can get bi-weekly elsewhere or just add $83.33 to your $1000 payment to do the same thing. Thats what the "OPPORTUNITY" does...you sell high priced products to the people who most need someone who will research the market for them and give them the best deal. They call that helping people. I call it cynical. You want to be cynical like primerica...fork over you $199 and go to it.

Fact #1 I bet you all don't realize that I am only 25 going on 26 years old and I KNOW I'm doing well for my family. Collecting quarters or whatever, I'm starting off the same way many of the richest people in the world started. By the way, well over $200K (gross) a year is not just collecting quarters, especially for a 25 year old! (Fact: that's actually collecting over 800,000 quarterslol) I also grew up in an impoverished community. I'm the first in my immediate family to graduate from college. Also, the first and the youngest in my entire family to make the kind of money I'm making; and will soon be the first in my entire family to have an advanced degree in business and law (when I decide to finish up my academic career). Fact #2 Pete from Michigan, you exhibit cowardice for only responding when you thought someone eliminated the validity of my comments in this thread. Also your comments are extremely sketchy! You sound like the typical infomercial success story! I will not dissect your comments as of now, but you might want to read them again and get your facts straight! Fact #3 Keith, (sadly from my hometown) you are clueless! Fact #4 John, when you say that only 4% of the US population makes over $50,000 you definitely need to back that up with some evidence, because I think your number is off and obviously a fallacy of composition! Also, Fidelity Investments, Ameriprise Financial, to name a few, caters to middle-class people, so Primerica is not doing anything different. Furthermore, there ARE a few people in this thread not using intelligence; I'm not one of them! You say that you were working in the corporate tax division of Bank One for five years servicing high end clients dealing with their personal financial issues, yet you were AMAZED at Primerica's boilerplate; Finance for Dummies; approach to investing! That honestly seems odd to me! Oh yeah, whether you're full-time or part-time, YOU ARE AN INDEPENDENT REPRESENTATIVE, THOSE COMMISSIONS HAVE EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR INCOME! So are you saying that you are office staff (secretary, data entry clerk, etc.)? Finally, why on earth would I change what I'm doing if it is A VERY SUCCESSFUL VENTURE?! Example: You're MISINFORMED if you think that consolidation loans help you build equity in your home, they do just the opposite! Fact #5 Most of the people on here speaking against Primerica (especially me) could give a flying 747 f_ck about what you people are doing. They felt someone was trying to rip them off; they spoke out about it; and you people came on this website trying to convince them that they were wrong! Most of the people speaking against Primerica were insulted by people; called lazy and stupid; told they don't want to do any different; told they'll never amount to anything; etc. Not only were there FACTS concerning Primerica submitted; an analysis based on years of research concerning MLM companies (like Primerica) was submitted; you all just overlooked them. Fact #6 The most basic example Contrary to Primerica demand; a higher interest loan DOES NOT save you money considering the cost of borrowing is arranged (through amortization) to come out at the beginning of the loan. For example, $50,000 loan @ 5.5%, amortized over 30 years, monthly payment is $283.89. Interest paid is $226.08 and principle is $57.81. Between years 0 and 1, principle paid is $673.54; between years 1 and 2, principle paid is $711.50; between years 2 and 3, principle paid $751.68, etc. Bi-weekly payments don't offset the cost of borrowing in the first 10 years. It's really only taking half of the monthly payment ($141.95) and paying that 26 times which is still only 13 full monthly payments a year; like Leroy was explaining, but you all just don't listen. Like Leroy said; if you add 8.33% to your monthly payment ($307.00) and STILL make an additional payment (13 pmts x $307.00) in the year (maybe around tax refund season), you will be way ahead of the game! The fact is, some people stay in their homes for the life of the loan, but most don't. Therefore, by the time you would start to get a benefit from the bi-weekly payment (which comes from resetting the accrual of interest every two weeks instead of every month) YOU'VE ALREADY SOLD THE HOME! What Primerica does is the same as what hundreds of debt consolidation companies do; they exhaust the equity you have in your home (sometimes causing a negative equity effect) to pay off your other expenses. This gives you one payment and of course lowers current expenses because your debt is stretched out over 30 years with a lower interest rate (relative to credit card interest rates). What's new and exciting about that? Think about this; what happens when a family has 10K in equity and 30K in miscellaneous debt? Considering the example above, that's a $60,000 (in value) home. If you consolidate their debt into one monthly payment, their new mortgage would be $80,000 [10K worth of equity and 20K worth of negative equity], @ 7.0% amortized over 30 years, monthly payment is $532.24 or bi-weekly $266.12. This actually looks like a good deal because your miscellaneous debt has been restructured to be included in your mortgage, however, if you tried to sell your home, you would be very unsuccessful! You can't sell a $60,000 home for $90,000! What happens if you have a home emergency? In conclusion, you may be making some money, but you can't open your eyes and see that your financial advising may be ill-advised. You come on here claiming that Primerica reps make all of this money helping families, but typing that is just as anecdotal as you claim our comments are. I can say for Jim (from GA), that he was the only person that tried to back his comments up with some form of research (but he also isn't a Primerica Rep). I don't care if you negate the facts, I don't lose any sleep behind it. You can accept them or reject them; that's up to you!

To quote: "To Jay, if you want to have an informed, witty, and well thought out debate on the subjects of our business practices and our underlying agendas, feel free to look up any of the collunmists that have written articles on the good that Primerica has done for Middle America over the last 3 decades. If you can't think of any, just go to google and type in Primerica. I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for there." Well, bad news: I DID a google. Here is what I found in the first two pages of a search for "Primerica" - 12 of the results were sites built/maintained by Primerica, CitiGroup or Primerica reps (obviously they are not going to have impartial info) 2 entries for Primerica Buster 1 RichDad forum with pros and cons by users (not what I call tangible proof for or against Primerica) 2 results from Ripoff Report 1 Wikepedia article which is neutral, and mostly about the business structure itself 1 other forum with pros and cons by users 1 entry offering business services to Primerica reps I don't really think that doing a google search has given me answers to my questions, unless I want to read Primerica sponsored sites that will give me their one sided agenda, or visit Primerica Buster, which gives me another one sided agenda. Got any other ideas?

I don't pretend to be the most intelligent man on the face of the earth. I won't go into an indepth study phase just to refute all of Jay's "insurmountalbe" points. I'm not going to sling mud as many of you have chosen to do. I will say this though, I've seen more people regain hope for a bright future with Primerica than anywhere else I have ever worked. I have seen more people happy with our quality of service and our products than anywhere else. I have seen more people get excited about there future again for dealing with us and our organization than I have with any other company. To Jay, if you want to have an informed, witty, and well thought out debate on the subjects of our business practices and our underlying agendas, feel free to look up any of the collunmists that have written articles on the good that Primerica has done for Middle America over the last 3 decades. If you can't think of any, just go to google and type in Primerica. I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for there. As for me, this is where I'm planting my flag. I enjoy what I do. I feel good about it because I get to make a lucrative income by doing something possitive for the people I care about most. I get to be excited when I wake up in the morning again. Yes, the first presentation I went to was a little cheesey, but I saw past that to the bigger picture. I've recently gotten my insurance license and I will be getting my Securities License shortly. If you and those like you are so anti-Primerica, give me cold hard VERIFIABLE FACTS WITH SOURCES THAT I CAN CHECK FOR MYSELF instead of your incescent complaining and jawjacking. Give me something to show me beyond the shadow of a doubt that I am doing the wrong thing. If you can produce such materials, than I would gladly withdraw my IBA. Until then, I urge you to enjoy your media safeharbor where you can spout your "factual" statements and rhetoric.

so I got an email tonight from a Primerica rep I had met the other day inviting me to his office on Saturday. you know what's the weirdest thing? "...10am Sharp" with a capital S in the middle of the sentence. Why is this weird? Look up the posting of Lloyd, the Primerica rep from Valley Center, California on 3/12/2003 in this thread. He uses the same "Sharp" in the middle of a sentence. Coincidence?

so I got an email tonight from a Primerica rep I had met the other day inviting me to his office on Saturday. you know what's the weirdest thing? "...10am Sharp" with a capital S in the middle of the sentence. Why is this weird? Look up the posting of Lloyd, the Primerica rep from Valley Center, California on 3/12/2003 in this thread. He uses the same "Sharp" in the middle of a sentence. Coincidence?

so I got an email tonight from a Primerica rep I had met the other day inviting me to his office on Saturday. you know what's the weirdest thing? "...10am Sharp" with a capital S in the middle of the sentence. Why is this weird? Look up the posting of Lloyd, the Primerica rep from Valley Center, California on 3/12/2003 in this thread. He uses the same "Sharp" in the middle of a sentence. Coincidence?

Because you can do exactly the same things Dave Ramsey wants you to do with someone other than primerica and do it better, and do a better job for the people you love so much. 1. You can sell term insurance only through any one of several national independent agencies and be able to offer your clients the best possible product for his/her situation from a choice of 50-60 highly rated reputable companies. That means you will not have to convince your client to purchase an overpriced product with a fairy tale that it is somehow better than someone else's term insurance. It isn't. 2. If you truly truly believe in buy-term-invest-the-difference than it stands to reason you also have to believe that the less the term costs the more difference you have to invest and the more money you will end up with at the end. 3. If you truly believe that speeding up your mortgage payoff is better for the Middle Class family (some don't) then the fewer fees, points and interest the loan charges the faster they will be out of debt. Primerica offers loans that are higher in those costs than you can offer as an independent loan agent. 4. If you truly believe you can recruit a bunch of amatuer part-timers to go out and write insurance so you can make money there are a number of independent national agencies that will pay you 80-90% commission on the term you sell from the very first policy. In addition you can negotiate with them how much to give your sub-agents you recruited so you can get 20% of each policy the sell from the first one and they can get 60-70%. You can put exactly the same multi-level marketing business together as an independant agent. I have a buddy who did this 20 years ago and ended up with 1,000 agents under him writing 300-400 policies per month. You ought to see his house overlooking San Diego Bay. When you get that big you can offer your sub-agents the full 80-90% commission on each policy and still make 20-30% for yourself. Ask your friend with primerica what he can do for an overweight gentlemen with Type 2 diabetes. He'll say he can't do anything. I, as an independent I can get him term insurance at standard rates with about 5-6 different big time companies as long as his diabetes is controlled. Ask your friend what primerica charges for a 40 year old single woman, then call SelectQuote or Matrix or any other of the big call-in agencies and see what they would charge. It will be almost half. I know, I have the same software they do. Do the same with a loan. Compare a primerica loan to a loan from an independent agent. You'll see the loan from the independent costs less. As far as getting out of debt sooner goes you don't ned a bi-weekly plan. All the homeowner has to do is add 8.33% of the principle and interest to each payment and it will shorten the length of his loan by exactly the same amount of time. As far as mutual funds go Smith-Barney is a fine company. However, their family of funds is remarkably unremarkable. You can achieve exactly the same results with Alliance or Fidelity or American Funds or any other family of funds. Its the asset allocation and the expenses that will provide the return over 30 years. By the way, Dave Ramsey says to buy no-load funds. Are you going to say Dave Ramsey is to be emulated in one area and ignored in another?

I'm back and that may or may not be good news for the new Jim. However, I must say that it was interesting to see someone attempt to discredit my reports. Something you should consider Jim, quantity does not necessarily equal quality. Your rebuttal is quite long, but it DEFINITELY lacks true quality. This is what I have realized after reading your lengthy thread. (And I will try to keep this short and simple) 1. You could have kept the Ken Young comments, none of them were used on my thread, just a reference to his site. The reason, he won a court case against Primerica and, contrary to your opinion, has some interesting things on his website. 2. I noticed that a significant portion of the reason your rebuttal is so long is because you copied sections of my original report. Therefore, you didn't really have a lot to say, you just made it look that way! As a matter of fact; if you cut out my comments and the definitions, you could have saved approximately five pages worth of information. 3. I noticed that you have only been with Primerica for 4 weeks, yet you write a thesis fit for a Ph D program (being very sarcastic there) about things you know about Primerica. That's interesting! 4. It would be nice one day to see someone that speaks on behalf of Primerica come into this thread that has sound knowledge concerning Finance and Economics. Jim, do you realize that the financial markets that we utilize today; and the individuals that work in that industry, utilize THESE ECONOMIC PRINCIPLES to predict financial market activity. So that portion of my argument IS VALID, no apologies needed! Economics (as it IS taught in college) is built around ECONOMIC THEORIES. To say that they hold no merit is to say that economics; being an economist; or holding an economics degree is useless. Come on, you seem intelligent, get it together, quickly! In short, that negates your submission of dictionary definitions of the words, hypothesis and theory. I already knew what they meant! 5. Starting at the word, Question 4 to the words ah yes, I'm not responding to because you don't really make an argument. Also, if you had thoroughly read my comments and the comments of others, you would have gotten that information, unfortunately you didn't read thoroughly. 6. I will start this one with a quote from John, an active Primerica rep: Primerica has somewhere in the neighborhoold of 110,000 Licensed peopel appointed with as Registered Representatives. You know what this means Jim, my breakdown AND your breakdown of the income statistics is wrong. Unfortunately, that only hurts your comments and helps mine. Aside from the misspelled words John makes a good point. THERE ARE 110,000 LICENSED REPRESENTATIVES OF PRIMERICA! So, in 2004 (without adjustments for differences in income like I've always said), the average income for Primerica reps is NOW $5,209.00. There is no way on this earth that you are going to attempt to convince me that 88% of these 110K licensed representatives are not trying to make money at Primerica, WHY WOULD THEY HAVE GOTTEN LICENSED! To say that is ridiculous and with John making that statement, that negates MOST, if not, ALL of YOUR deceptive statistics concerning their income. If reps are licensed through Primerica, yet not working for Primerica, then Primerica should have done the following (based on the rules & regulations of the NASD): Based on the rules of the NASD, if a representative registered with the NASD leaves for any reason, they (Primerica) have 30 days to supply that person with a Uniform Termination Notice for Securities Industry Registration (Form U-5). If that person decides to work in the same industry, their new employer should receive a copy of the U-5 and follow the appropriate protocol. As a registered representative, they have an agency relationship with Primerica whether as an employee or an independent contractor. In short, if Primerica is not using the U-5 after reps terminate their relationship with Primerica, they are causing that rep to be in violation of the NASD and so is Primerica for not filing it. Not only that, one Primerica rep explained that they are doing that to fluff their numbers, which is DEFINITELY unethical if you're screwing up someone's creditability with the NASD. Disclaimer: If they ARE using the U-5 then Thank God it's not like that! Back to the statistics! The funny thing is, the income can easily be proven, because ALL the Primerica reps in here know which pamphlet I'm talking about. They also have access to Primiercaonline.com which gives you all of that information. If it was any different, they would have spoke out, BUT THEY DON'T, only you Jim whose not even a rep yet! Again no apologies needed here, but to reiterate, John (a Primerica rep) busted your theory, so I will skip down to the words, see there are more people. 7. You start off by saying, See, there are significantly more people near the 50k range than near the 100k range. You know this information, how? Remember, you are not a rep and you've only been in the presence of some Primerica reps for a few weeks. In attempting to rebuttal me, you violate your own principle. It is very deceptive for YOU to assume you know everything about Primerica WHEN YOU'RE NOT EVEN A REP, NOR HAVE ACCESS TO INFORMATION ONLY REPS WOULD! There is a moral to this story so far! Being facetious and sarcastic does not equal intelligence! Now, skipping down even further! (HmmmPoor Jay is looking pretty good right about now!) 8. The illegal immigrant comment' was a joke that Jim obviously did not catch. Even further, Jim went on and looked at statistics (and did research) of immigrants, NOT illegal immigrants, which are TWO entirely different situations! You read one word and jumped out of the tree' (by the way, I don't mean that literally) on that one. Unfortunately, you landed on your head! I didn't need to do research on that, everyone but you knew where I was going with that and did not take me literally. So again, we have to skip down through your poorly written report because of YOUR obviously mistakes. I'll go to the words, You mean to tell me! 9. Although John's comments about the 110K licensed reps negate this comment, I feel the need to respond to it just in case you may have forgotten. You attempt to plug Cody's 12% efficiency rate into the tally of reps making money at Primerica, but that's really pathetic! First off, (and this is just mere common sense) Cody's rate would not be the same as someone else. Even better, considering the tally Primerica gave us concerning its reps only accounts for the ones that are licensed and registered (as John so eloquently described), this is yet another comment of yours blown out of the water (oh yeah, I don't mean that literally). Then you mention most of the reps at Primerica work part-time, YOU KNOW THIS, how?! Got to skip down again (most of the comments following you mean to tell me is erroneous because of Jim's NOW obvious errors). I am skipping down to Am I the only person. 10. Seems as if you know more about Cody and he does! I guess you know for a fact that Cody doesn't have 3 districts. He hasn't returned, but I think he named at least two (Deb and Dave) in his rebuttal to my comments! Again, you are stuck trying to refute someone with information you don't know and don't care to know! In your defense; you did say that you were just an instigator. So go ahead, URGE your people to do something destructive, like joining Primerica. 11. My definition of competitive advantage. Wow, this one was funny, but then I read further down in your thread and realized why you may have questioned this. Anyway, one error that I will admit to is I didn't adjust my writing skills to fit the level of intelligence of my reader. I personally didn't realize that you don't understand that there are connotative and denotative meanings to words. Therefore, the business economic definition (connotative meaning) of competitive advantage (not just the word advantage) will be distinctively different from its denotative (direct, exact) definition. Exposure to education on economics through a formal education or some form of experience in the industry would have helped you understand the difference and that does not warrant any further commentary! 12. To the comments about my personal life, first off, you don't know me so you may want to leave that subject alone. You mention my wife and you don't even know if I'm married or not. By the way, I am and the funny thing is; my wife and I manage the properties. She does most of the work. Not only that, you don't even know how much of my income is generated through overtime now do you Jim, I just mentioned it. Again, you know nothing about me and to make these statements is showing me (and everyone else) how pathetic you are in trying to be the intelligent one. I just came from a vacation with my wife; therefore I was unable to respond to this garbage earlier. I don't have to try to be intelligent. If that's the way I come off, then so be it; I don't need you to validate me, because at the end of the day; when we are not on this website, I have my credentials and you have yours; I have my many successes and you have yours. Some of my credentials I have already spoken of, so read up! By the way, it doesn't take that long to type a report or get information against Primerica, it's readily available. 12A. Practice what I preach? Please! You can't find one word I used out of context, maybe out of your vocabulary, but not out of context! 13. Man, the first comment that you may be right on! No, I have not worked in the sales industry, yes; I do realize that companies do have pep rallies. That's also not just in the sales industry. The difference is; at other sales companies they are not asking you to bring people to join their company. Also, other companies don't have to convince you that they are a good company! Those are not the only differences, just obvious ones. With all the mess you submitted, you didn't comment on the fact that Primerica is also registered as a MLM company with dsa.org! 13A. An explanation on your child's biking riding process vs. Primerica's recruiting process does not prove that you know how the brain works. The way you start explaining this, [and I paraphrase] I taught her in 10 minutes as opposed to her mother's failure in a week, proves you are the average, I think I know it all kind of guy! You also seem to be psychic too, because although you were not there, you heard your daughter's mother say, This is useless, this will never work. You're never going to learn how to do this just go inside. I think you added that comment to positively reinforce the point you're trying to make with this story. But why should I be surprised, you've been adding comments since the beginning of your response for positive reinforcement, although you don't know anything about the facts! This is the only truth I found in your comments: There is nothing easy about trying to sell products to a consumer when you're strictly paid on commissions. Sadly this causes some people to act irresponsibly and they may deceive people to make a sale. 14. You contradict yourself with the list of complaints made towards other companies in comparison to Primerica. You also negate all of the reports filed on rip-off report.com. If everyone on this site chose to file a complaint with the better business bureau, then those numbers would change. Even your list of complaints is deceptive because you fail to mention that every office has to register with the BBB individually. Nationally, only 50 Primerica offices are registered with the BBB. So if there were complaints from the offices not registered (which is hundreds of offices), the BBB WOULD NOT have any record of them! Man, were you grasping for straws there! 14A. By submitting that info about the BBB, you twisted your stats Jim. Because you didn't disclose everything! I took the information that was provided to me by a representative of Primerica and their website and based my stats and reports off of that. Is that twisting statistics, hell no! 14B. The fact that you are a member of Mensa give you what, other than intellectual stimulation?! Keep in mind, I didn't make this comment without doing my research on Mensa coupled with the fact that I already knew about Mensa and the Mensa IQ test. In fact; there was an email that circulated through my company with that information. I scored pretty well! 15. To the comment, When you say you make over 180k yourself Jay, that's before and expenses too. OKAY I think I explained that! In fact, when you quoted something I typed, I spoke to the very nature of that, remember this, see Cody, that's effective gross income of $189,200 per year (before operating expenses, debt services, depreciation, and taxes). I guess you, again, you keep drawing for straws, but I think you're going to run out of them eventually! Yes, I do work a regular 9 to 5 in something I absolutely LOVE doing. Not only that, I am making real good profit on my rental properties, so I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO WORRIES (although, like everyone, that could change)! Why you people keep using my comment about my tenants is pathetic as well. Everyday I'm making money and don't even have to get out of bed (on some occasions). My wife doesn't work and she doesn't have to dedicate, even half a day to rental properties. See Jim, when you're a good landlord, you don't have to do much! Like I told Cody, the only reason they give me hell is because they take my kindness for weakness. All 6 complexes have full finished basements with some nice amenities, plus I offered them some incentive programs. Sometimes that makes them think they can always get something for free from me, but I can't operate like that. Just a mental note for you, I wouldn't have a 0% vacancy rate with rents at or above fair market (for 2 bedroom apts) if I didn't understand how minds work. Do you realize that $237,200 in total gross income is not attained (in the particular industry(ies) I operate in) by not having some form of expertise. I am currently purchasing two more 4 units and I will have enough collateral to assume the mortgage (and finance a down payment) for a 50+ unit apartment complex. OKAY, I THINK I'M DONE! After breaking down the information you submitted, I've come to this conclusion for anyone speaking on behalf of Primerica: If you let them talk long enough, they will eventually stick their foot in their mouth! P.S. Nothing you wrote was worth commenting on, but if I let you get away with it, you probably would have thought that you've refuted me and I can't let that happen! Like I told Cody, TRY AGAIN JIM!

Bi-weekly pay programs are okay......the point is you can do precisely the same thing by adding an extra 8.33% of the principle and interest payment each month. I can't imagine what possible advantage a bi-weekly program has over a standard monthly loan when you can achieve exactly the same thing by adding some dollars to the monthly payment. To me a bi-weekly plan is nothing more than a numbers gimmick designed to help sell a program. John says that everyone does loan consolidation loans. Okay. Big deal. John says he saved someone $300,000 over in interest over 53 years by consolidating loans. Okay. My point is this......if they paid primerica one more point for that loan and a half-percent more in interest (which is pretty typical) than someone else would have charged, they are still paying MORE THAN THEY SHOULD in interest. Had they gotten a loan with a lower % rate and then added 8.33% each month to the principle and interest payment they would STILL be out of debt at the same time primerica calculates and would have paid less money in interest during that period of time, thus saving MORE than the $300,000 John claims. Primericans...you can believe in the general principles Primerica teaches you. Thats fine. Buying term and investing the difference is the best way to go for 90-95% of the folks out there. Paying off a mortgage early is a fine concept. What I keep trying to tell you is that with cheaper term the client has more difference to invest. With lower interest rates and points on a loan then the house will be paid off earlier. You can do these things with other companies that can afford to charge the clients less for their products because they don't have to subsidize a BLOATED commission structure like primerica has. The other thing I'd like to emphasize is that BTID and paying off a house early ISN'T THE BEST THING ALL THE TIME!

Bi-weekly pay programs are okay......the point is you can do precisely the same thing by adding an extra 8.33% of the principle and interest payment each month. I can't imagine what possible advantage a bi-weekly program has over a standard monthly loan when you can achieve exactly the same thing by adding some dollars to the monthly payment. To me a bi-weekly plan is nothing more than a numbers gimmick designed to help sell a program. John says that everyone does loan consolidation loans. Okay. Big deal. John says he saved someone $300,000 over in interest over 53 years by consolidating loans. Okay. My point is this......if they paid primerica one more point for that loan and a half-percent more in interest (which is pretty typical) than someone else would have charged, they are still paying MORE THAN THEY SHOULD in interest. Had they gotten a loan with a lower % rate and then added 8.33% each month to the principle and interest payment they would STILL be out of debt at the same time primerica calculates and would have paid less money in interest during that period of time, thus saving MORE than the $300,000 John claims. Primericans...you can believe in the general principles Primerica teaches you. Thats fine. Buying term and investing the difference is the best way to go for 90-95% of the folks out there. Paying off a mortgage early is a fine concept. What I keep trying to tell you is that with cheaper term the client has more difference to invest. With lower interest rates and points on a loan then the house will be paid off earlier. You can do these things with other companies that can afford to charge the clients less for their products because they don't have to subsidize a BLOATED commission structure like primerica has. The other thing I'd like to emphasize is that BTID and paying off a house early ISN'T THE BEST THING ALL THE TIME!

Bi-weekly pay programs are okay......the point is you can do precisely the same thing by adding an extra 8.33% of the principle and interest payment each month. I can't imagine what possible advantage a bi-weekly program has over a standard monthly loan when you can achieve exactly the same thing by adding some dollars to the monthly payment. To me a bi-weekly plan is nothing more than a numbers gimmick designed to help sell a program. John says that everyone does loan consolidation loans. Okay. Big deal. John says he saved someone $300,000 over in interest over 53 years by consolidating loans. Okay. My point is this......if they paid primerica one more point for that loan and a half-percent more in interest (which is pretty typical) than someone else would have charged, they are still paying MORE THAN THEY SHOULD in interest. Had they gotten a loan with a lower % rate and then added 8.33% each month to the principle and interest payment they would STILL be out of debt at the same time primerica calculates and would have paid less money in interest during that period of time, thus saving MORE than the $300,000 John claims. Primericans...you can believe in the general principles Primerica teaches you. Thats fine. Buying term and investing the difference is the best way to go for 90-95% of the folks out there. Paying off a mortgage early is a fine concept. What I keep trying to tell you is that with cheaper term the client has more difference to invest. With lower interest rates and points on a loan then the house will be paid off earlier. You can do these things with other companies that can afford to charge the clients less for their products because they don't have to subsidize a BLOATED commission structure like primerica has. The other thing I'd like to emphasize is that BTID and paying off a house early ISN'T THE BEST THING ALL THE TIME!

I have a close, personal friend who works for Primerica. He genuinely loves to help people, and left his $45,000 a year job managing a McDonald's. He is now doing Primerica full time, with over 20 recruits, and he's making money. I still don't understand what is so flawed about their system? Managers receiving overrides from employee sales is commonplace in the sales market. Also, I've seen him devise financial plans to help people. Dave Ramsey used to be with Primerica, and the same strategies that Ramsey effectively uses every day to help people are the same principles my friend uses, and the same ones he touts through Primerica. I don't think anyone can say Ramsey's system is flawed. Roy Matlock Jr. is still with Primerica, and he is one of the most respected financial gurus in the country. What is the problem with Primerica, before I join?

"John and Brett are NOT the same People.!!!" Are you addressing me or the EDitorial staff? Some evidence that you're the same is that you BOTH misspell license the same way - licence (I can give more evidence, but I accept the word of the EDitorial staff as final).

You spent about an encyclpoedia set worth of diatribe making excuses for WHY Primerica's numbers stink. But, in the end, all you really did was verify most of Jay's statements. Most Primericans are part time, only 12% of them ever actually get licensed, etc., etc. Great. Now, can you tell us WHY most Primericans are working part time? The sad truth is that most Primerica recruits think they are heading into a full-time career when they sign on. After a few weeks, however, they realize that Primerica does not offer quite the "opportunity" that they initially thought, and they find new "day jobs." And can you tell my WHY the Primerican roster is SO padded with people who aren't even active? Could it be because SO many people take a stab at this endeavor, realize that they've been duped, and stop trying? And, FYI, it would be a 10b-5 violation for Primerica to keep non-active agents on its rosters for too long, especially when the "roster" referred to is an SEC filing. I'm suspecting that many of the "inactives" are actually active, they just aren't selling anything. It all comes back to deceptive recruiting. Even your rosy, manipulated numbers (which are probably somewhere close to the reality) aren't anywhere near the expectations of a new recruit. And, if those numbers are accurate, and if they actually represent a likelihood of minimal success, then why doesn't Primerica direct its recruit to THOSE numbers, and not the numbers of its top earners, who by your statements probably aren't even actually reps? We can argue about the numbers, but here's some indisputable bottom lines for ya: 1) Nobody has ever "stuck around" to defend Primerica on the RoR. Primericans put in one, maybe even a few rebuttals and we never hear from them again. 2) An invitation has been extended to dozens of Primericans over the years: come back in six months and tell us of your success. How many have taken us up on that invitation? NOT ONE! Draw your own inferences. And, finally, I thought you were going to tear apart this statement: "So, if paying off the debt in a shorter period is the way to go, AND the expected rate of return is 10-12%, then the APR on Primerica financing MUST exceed 10-12% for the financial plan to be solid. And this, definitively, is NOT a good financial plan because the average ROR will be (at least today, and historically) higher than the average APR." The gist of that statement is that Primerica CANNOT, in accordance with simple principles of economics, simaltaneously claim competitive rates of return on investments AND competitive APRs on loan products while holding to the "pay it off ASAP" philosophy. Prove me wrong like you said you would, brother. But for God's sake, PLEASE keep it short.

43 300,000 Preferred Non Smoker with Primerica is $498.00 a year. I'm sorry that is actually $113 less than the 611 that you mention. That $113 dollars that that family saves can be added to that IRA Mutual Fund through Smith Barney. If that is getting 10% and they do that from age 43 (as you provided) to retirement age 65 they will have $100,777.76 saved towards retirement. But you mentioned this family would have $1,500 each year to put towards their financial independance. That would mean them to have more: 30 Year Term Insurance $47.31 /month $498.00/year Smith Barney MutualFund $77.69/month $1002.00/year Total $125.00/month $1500.00/year Not only will they have insurance until they are 73 years old. But at age 65 they will also have $101,752.66. That seems like a better program to me than what you were spouting. By the way if you look at the AM Best Primerica is A++, Moody's AA+. One more thing Leroy, about the Loans. Every lending company in the world does refinances to consolidate debt. CitiBank, (the bank that does the consolidation loans for Primerica) does the bi-weeksly's with shave yearsa off of a mortgage. I just did onw that totald $180,000 before doing anything with all their credit card debt and they trucks they would have paid a total of $400,000 in interest payments until 2059. I was able to consolidate for them and get them out of debt completley in 2016 and only spend $99,000.00 in interest. Hands down that is a better deal. Rolling a car payment into a consolidation is a good idea, because you pay the car off right away, and you begin creating a ton of equity in your property that most didn't have before within the first 15 months. Read it closer Leroy.

That is strange that you would say that you Think I am Brett are the same people. We are not. We obviously have separate logins. We do both work in the same office. So therefore if you are seeing the same IP address, that is because we are in the same Office. I will say this though. I think it is funny, that you have no other argument for our response, than "You must be the same people." We have have the same views, because we work in the same place, and we both, Make money through Primerica. Don't be mad that we have given you the answer you are looking for.

Jay great job for breaking down a brochure on commisions. THat has absolutley nothing to do with the Salarys paid to the Office Staff. You also mentioned that Primerica wants you to leave your "Good Paying Job" to make less than you do now. That is not the smartest thing that could be said, because I'm quite certain that Primerica/Citigroup or any of it's represenatives requested you to do that. Primerica has somewhere in the neighborhoold of 110,000 Licensed peopel appointed with as Registered Representatives. Only about 36,000 of those are full time. I know for a fact that my office has about 300 people that are licensed and work part time somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 days a week. You're right those peopel only make abotu $1,000 or $1,600 a month. That's pretty decent part time income. I know when I was working as an Engineer, and still needed extra money just to keep up with society, my part-time jobs didnt' pay that for putting in five or six extra days. It seems Jay, like you don't want to do anything different. I can understand that. That is okay, but it obviously don't have your facts straight about how things work. Aside from you talking to the right people and having them show you the information you are looking for; it seems that there is no resolution for you. It seems like you will hate Primerica forever. I am okay with that and so is the rest of the Citigroup. I'll tell you this about my spersonal story, I worked part-time (something like 15 hours a month) with Primerica for about a year and a half. The first year I did actual work for like only 6 month; I made just over $10,000. I was quite satisfied to make an extra $10k for somehting I did part-time when I could fit it around my schedule. If i add it all up that comes to about $250 an hour. You may not be...but I was satisfied. That's $10k extra I was able to put to mysavings, and washat was more important is that I was able to help out a few people in the process. The second year I workd about 9 months, my mom was sick, so I had to leave town to tend to her and Primerica is so flexible that it was easy for me to take that time off without getting fired or anything like that. My full time job wasn't so generous, and they ate up my PTO and sick leave. That year with Primerica working extremely part time for roughly 9 months I made about $27,000. That comes to about only $150 per hour, so if you think about it my income went down. You may no be...but I was satisfied. That's an extra $27,000 that I didn't have before. That's my fully funded IRA, for the year, that's the kids College Savings account Funded for the year, and that's also money towards my retirement., that I didn't have before.

John from Ohio says only 4% OF POPULATION MAKES $50,000. Maybe the caveat here is the use of the term "population"......which would include children, retired and disabled. The US Census Buruea has some different numbers. According to the US Census Bureau in 2004 the median income in 33 of 50 states is over $50,000, with a range of a low of $39,995 to a high of $73,000. Further, it says in its breakdown of FULLTIME workers that men average a shade over $40,000 and women a bit over $31,000. Even more to the point it says that 5% of the fulltime workers make over $88,000. Buying insurance from Primerica has a lost opportunity cost that 99% of their sales force can't even define let alone calculate. Since the only solution for insurance and investment Primerica deems worthy is term insurance plus mutual fund investing and Primerica readily admits they are not cheap lets exmaine what the "lost opportunity cost" is for some people to deal with Primerica. Lets take a couple both age 43. We'll assume they are preferred risk non-smokers (contrary to Primerica myth this the rating classification the most people fall under) Let's say they need $300,000 of 20 year guaranteed level insurance and can commit $125 a month ($1500 per year) for both insurance and investments. They can purchase the term insurance from a well known A++ rated company for $611 per year or they can purchase it for $896 per year from Primerica. That is a difference of $285 per year. With the exception of a few Smith-Barney house funds this couple can purchase exactly the same mutual funds from any other registered rep as a primerica rep can offer. That $285 difference is the "lost opportunity cost" of dealing with Primerica. We'll pretend this investment earns 10%. In 20 years time that $285 per year would have provided an extra $18,010 in retirement funds. That $18,010 is the the "lost opportunity cost cost of dealing with a Primerica rep, not the $23.75 a month. The $18,010 is the REAL cost. The same can be said of their debt solution. loan. Primerica reps roll their credit card debt and house payment into one consolidated mortgage loan with a bi-weekly payment schedule. They also have been known to roll car payments into the new home loan meaning the person will be paying on a car for years and years after he has unloaded it. The Primerica reps offer a loan with more points and higher interest than is possible with a mortgage broker. There is more "lost opportunity cost" associated with this loan. On an average size loan of $200,000 if you pay just 1 more point and just 1/2 of 1% higher loan rate, at the assumed rate of return of 10% (which is less than number Primerica reps assume) the "lost opportunity cost" on the loan over 20 years is $69,056 added to the $18,010 you lost buying overpriced insurance.....a total of $87,066. If Primerica actually believed their rhetoric about how they will help the little guy when the other companies won't then they should offer products as good as the other guys offer. Primerica is and always has been a great marketing concept designed to make its creator, A.L. Williams, megarich while cynically exploiting the lack of knowledge of its target clientelle. Finally John from Ohio says that Primerica has been good for him. Maybe it has.....but the cost to your clients for your help (sic) is in the 10s of $1,000s of dollars.

WELL, YOU KNOW I CANT GO TO ONE OF THOSE TRASHY OFFICES AND GET A 1099, THEY WONT GIVE IT TO ME. WHY DONT YOU JUST POST YOUR 1099. YOU ALL KNOW THIS IS A CULT. PEOPLE GO TO THESE RAH RAH MEETINGS JUST TO FELL LIKE THIER PART OF SOMETHING, EVEN THOUGH IT IS INDEED A JOKE OF A COMPANY. YOU TALK ABOUT GIVING PEOPLE A CHANCE? WHAT CHANCE? YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE. YOU DONT PAY FOR THIER LICENSES, YOU DONT PROVIDE OFFICES AND IF THEY DO SELL SOMETHING, YOU PAY OUT A VERY MINIMAL COMMISION. HOW ARE YOU GIVING SOMEONE A CHANCE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE. FOR THE RECORD IT COSTS $101 FOR BOOKS AND THE STATE OF MICHIGAN LIFE INSURANCE LICENSE. IF I DO MY MATH RIGHT THAT IS A $98 PROFIT TO "HIRE" SOMEONE, SO THATS WHY YOU ALL PUSH RECRUITING SO MUCH. IN THE REAL WORLD OF FINANCIAL SERVICES, YOU DONT WANT ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY, DOING THIS YOU WANT TO DO IT FOR THEM BECAUSE THAT WAY YOU GET THE BUSINESS, WHO WANTS MORE COMPETITION THAN THERE ALREADY IS, ESPECIALLY YOUR WARM MARKET. JUST QUIT STATING YOU MAKE ALL THIS MONEY UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO POST YOUR EARNINGS TO PROVE US ALL WRONG. YOU KNOW NONE OF US ARE GOING TO GO TO ONE OF THOSE DUMPS AND ASK FOR A 1099, AND YOU KNOW IF WE DID WE WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO SEE IT. IT'S A CULT THATS IT, JUST ADMIT IT YOU FAKES

Great, some more Primerica reps, one who seems somewhat intelligent too! (A big difference from the other Jim). I just got back in town and this is all I can write for now, but it's coming! Jim from GA, I hope you are ready because I got some good news for you, my rebuttal is coming, however, I have to take care of some things first. John from OH, it will be my pleasure to refute you also. This is going to be good... Stay tuned!

After looking over the reports filed by by John and Brett from Columbus, OH, (on 1/15), I have every reason to believe that they are the same person who is trying to give the impression that there are multiple posters trying to rebutt. I request you investigate. If they are the same then I would request that you ban this poster for the deception that he's trying to perpetrate on this website. ((See BUSTED! below))

You need to use some intelligence. If you want a copy of our 1099 reports, or you want to see some paychecks, feel free to walk into any Primerica Office and people I'm sure would be very happy to show you these. I will. There were several responses on this particular original comment, not not believing that Primerica people make any kind of decent money. Think about this... only 4% of the entire population of the United State of America make more than $50,000.00 a year. In terms of the Representative of Primerica member of Citigroup; 5% of the representative make over $100,000.00 a year, 1% make more than $1,000,000.00 a year. Given that is percentages of 200,000 fully licensed people, that is pretty good. I am a representative of Primerica, and I think their system is pretty dern excellent. I used to work for Bank One Corporate Tax Division for five years. In this capacity I had the opportunity to work with several high end clients, dealing with their personal financial situations. There were people that came in there each and every day wanting to do something with their spare 200K laying around. Working in this capacity I had to get licenses with the State of Illinois and the NASD in order to do anything with those moneies. Later Bank One moved me to Ohio and I had to get a different License in Ohio to work in the same capacity. I did this all the way through college to help pay for my degree in Electrical Engineering. The money at Bank One was okay, and I had some extra licenses I could add to my resume, but my managers made a higher commission than I did. When I came across Primerica, I was introduced by way of a Corporate Overview designed to give a group of people an idea of what the company did and what their goals were and what the expectations were of their representatives. I was quite impressed with the company, because they did something that Bank One (whom I worked for) and American Express (who I'd interviewed with) and Merrill Lynch (who I also intervied with) did not. They catered to people of middle and lower income America. I myself grew up in a non-wealthy part of Chicago, with two college educated Blind parents, who both worked, but because of their limitations were never fortunate enough to get really high end jobs. This meant we had limitations growing up of what we could do without extra dollars. I tried several times to find ways to get some of the advising that my department was providing to very wealthy people at Bank One to my community all the time without success. Pretty much the Banks Investment division was only interested in helping clients with more than a $50k net worth. One thing I was able to get them to do was participate in something called "Academy of Finance" a program started by Citigroup providing financial education in certain high schools around the nation. Sitting at that Corporate Overview at Primerica was an eye opening experience for me telling me that there was something actually out there already helping people the way I had been trying to for years. Primerica does quite a few things. I saw that they give everyone a chance to say why they can do something better. When I interviewed at American Express, and Merrill Lynch, they said, "You have the Licenses, but not enough experience yet." Primerica, not only was satisfied that I had my licenses already...if I hadn't they would have paid 2/3 of the cost up front for me and then reimbursed the rest after I was licensed. Bank One didn't do that for me. Bank One said "look you need a license...get it." I paid $568.00 out of my pocket to get just the first license. I had to spend another $415.00 to the state of Ohio once I moved for my license there. I started working with Primerica and learned so much more, and was able to help so many more people. I actually went back to Chicago to help my Parents first just to see what they really ad and see if we could do anything for them. My parents who worked hard pretty much didn't know what to do in terms of saving APPROPRIATELY for retirement. Through Smith Barney (sister company of Primerica) and Van Kampen (sister company of Primerica) I was able to set them up with the perfect retirement program for them. All the other financial advisior companies wanted to charge a thousand dollars just to do an analysis and then tell them what to do with their money. That money is better off saved. Primerica also gave me the opportunity to help other people work and help others as well. I have a quite a few people working with me that work only part time just because they needed only a few extra dollars in their budget just to get by. One who has become a dear friend; I met her actually as a client putting an analysis together for her to see who she could eliminator her debt before hitting retirement (she was already over age 50). One of the things I found is that basically she needed more money. Her job as an administrative assistant with another large company in Columbus, paid her like $40k a year, but she has two kids in college one still at home and still has a mortgage and credit cards etc. Even with all she had she needed at least and extra $700.00 a month just to get by. I new that she was a sharp person and likes helping people so I gave her the opportunity that was given to me at Primerica before. She started with Primerica part time, got her licenses, and helps other families just like hers one day a week. That one day a week, has yielded her, like an extra $1,600.00 a month. There are people that have part-time and even full-time jobs that only pay them $1,600.00 all month long. She has been able to make up the extra $700 that she needed to help pay off her debt and even makes enough to save more for that retirement time. That's not bad for working roughly 4 hours a day for 4 days a month. There are a ton of people that work with Primerica in this fashion (part-time). You're right those probably don't make $50,000.00 a year; but what part time anything would pay you that...none that I know of. Jay, also asked why, would I hire someone without a finance degree. I ask you this...have you ever had a job interview anywhere and got turned down? Most people have at one time in their life. Primerica does not allow everybody to work with them, but I'll tell you this when I interview someone...if they are a mechanic, currently, or a truck driver, or a retail clerk, or a server, as long as they are someone that tells me in an interview that they truly want to do something big, they truly want to make a difference in their lives and in someone else's lives, and they don't have any kind of criminal record at all, then i will at least give the the chance. I will at least allow them the opportunity to turn an application in to the State Department of Insurance and NASD. My office is set up to provide the training, that is needed, if they are the right person, they will show up and they will learn and they will help people.

You need to use some intelligence. If you want a copy of our 199 reports, or you want to see some paychecks, feel free to walk into any Primerica Office and peopel I'm sure would be very happy to show you these. I will. There were several responses on this particular original comment, not not believing that Primerica peopel make any kind of decent money. Think about this... only 4% of the entire population of the United State of America make more than $50,000.00 a year. In terms of the Representative of Primerica member of Citigroup; 5% of the representative make over $100,000.00 a year, 1% make more than $1,000,000.00 a year. Given that is percentages of 200,000 fully licensed people, that is pretty good. I am a representative of Primerica, and I think their system is pretty dern excellent. I used to work for Bank One Corporte Tax Division for five years. In this capacity I had the opportunity to work with several high end clients, dealing with their personal financial situations. There were people that came in there each and every day wanting to do somehting with their spare 200K laying around. Working in this capacity I had to get licenses with the State of Illinois and the NASD in order to do anything with those moneies. Later Bank One moved me to Ohio and I had to get a different License in Ohio to work in the same capacity. I did this all the way through college to help pay for my degree in Electrical Engineering. The money at Bank One was okay, and I had some extra licenses I could add to my resume, but my managers made a higher commision than I did. When I came accross Primerica, I was introduced by way of a Corporate Overview designed to give a group of people an idea of what the company did and what their goals were and what the expectations were of their representatives. I was quite impressed with the company, because they did something that Bank One (whom I worked for) and American Express (who I'd interviewd with) and Merrill Lynch (who I also intervied with) did not. They catered to peoplel of middle and lower income america. I myself grew up in a non-walthy part of Chicago, with two college educated Blind parents, who both worked, but because of their limitations were never fortunate enough to get really high end jobs. This meant we had limitations growing up of what we could do without extra dollars. I tried several times to find ways to get some of the advising that my department was providing to very wealthy people at Bank One to my community all the time without success. Pretty much the Banks Investment division was only interested in helping clients with more than a $50k networth. One thing I was able to get them to do was participate in something called "Academy of Finance" a program started by Citigroup providing financial education in certain high schools around the nation. Sitting at that Corporate Overview at Primerica was an eye opening experience for me telling me that there was somehting actually out there already helping people the way I had been trying to for years. Primerica does quite a few things. I saw that they give everyone a chance to say why they can do something better. When I intervied at American Express, and Merrill Lynch, they said, "You have the Licenses, but not enough experience yet." Primerica, not only was satisfied that I had my licenses already...if I hadn't they would have paid 2/3 of the cost up front for me and then reimbursed the rest after I was licensed. Bank One didn't do that for me. Bank One said "look you need a license...get it." I paid $568.00 out of my pocket to get just the first license. I had to spend another $415.00 to the state of Ohio once I moved for my license there. I started working with Primerica and learned so much more, and was able to help so many more people. I actually went back to Chicago to help my Parents first just to see what they really ad and see if we could do anything for them. My parents who worked hard pretty much didn't know what to do in terms of saving APPROPRIATELY for retirement. Through Smith Barney (sister company of Primerica) and Van Kampen (sister company of Primerica) I was able to set them up with the perfect retirement program for them. All the other financial advision companies wanted to charge a thousand dollars just to do an analysis and then tell them what to do with their money. That money is better off saved. Primerica also gave me the opportunity to help other people work and help others as well. I have a quite a few people wroking with methat work only part time just because they needed only a few extra dollars in their budget just to get by. One who has become a dear friend; I met her actually as a client putting an analysis together for her to see who she could eliminater her debt before hitting retirement (she was already over age 50). One of the things I found is that basically she needed more money. Her job as an administrative assistant with another large company in Columbus, paid her like $40k a year, but she has two kids in college one still at home and still has a mortgage and credit cards etc. Even with all she had she needed at least and extra $700.00 a month just to get by. I new that she was a sharp person and likes helping people so I gave her the opportunity that was given to me at Primerica before. She started with Primerica part time, got her licenses, and helps other families just like hers one day a week. That one day a week, has yeilded her, like an extra $1,600.00 a month. There are peopel that have part-time and even full-time jobs that only pay them $1,600.00 all month long. She has been able to make up the extra $700 that she needed to help pay off her debt and even makes enough to save more for that retirement time. That's not bad for working roughly 4 hours a day for 4 days a month. There are a ton of people that work with Primerica in this fashion (part-time). You're right those probably don't make $50,000.00 a year; but what part time anything woudl pay you that...none that I know of. Jay, also asked why, would I hire someone without a finance degree. I ask you this...have you ever had a job intervie anywhere and got turned down? Most people have at one time in their life. Primerica does not allow everybody to work with them, but I'll tell you this when I interview someone...if they are a mechanic, currently, or a truck driver, or a retail clerk, or a server, as long as they are someone that tells me in an interview that they truly want to do something big, they truly want to make a difference in their lives and in someone else's lives, and they don't have any kind of criminal record at all, then i will at least give the the chance. I will at least allow them the opportunity to turn an application in to the State Department of Insurance and NASD. My office is set up to provide the training, that is needed, if they are the right person, they will show up and they will learn and they will help people.

I going to respond to a couple things and add alittle insight.. Primeria, which is a company in Duluth GA, does have employees.. As agents we are not employees of Primerica. So when a sales rep says they are looking to fill jobs or implies a employee/employer relationship, then that is not correct by a long shot..and that should be brought to the office attention immediately. I don't depend on recruiting for business solely, there are plenty of other legitimate ways of getting sale leads. The $199.00 as stated many times is for the class and books but if you want you can find your own classes and pay alot more, at least here in ohio.

Yours has been the most thought-out, logical response to this whole thread. I have read many of Jay's tirades against Primerica on this forum but have never replied because I felt it would be like talking to a rock. I was in the industry (not Primerica) for 12 years. For the last five, my income was in the seven figure range. Naturally, that was pre-tax and expenses. But, of course, being in the industry, I knew the proper way to handle it. Because of my production, for several years many benefits, such as office space and furniture, were provided by my primary vendor. These was not considered income, thus had no tax consequences. Secretarial/support duties were performed by my wife from her home office. I totally agree with your comments as to why 'pep' rallies have to be held. I conducted them on a regular basis to encourage our newer reps. Jay may ask why I'm no longer in the industry. My wife and I like to travel. I like to have my summers free for these trips. Conducting classes in Economics at a local university makes it ideal for the lifestyle to which we've become accustomed. We were able to achieve all this because of a company like Primerica. When I was first hired, I had to borrow the $125 (not $199 as with Primerica) from a family member. After becoming licensed, the company reimbursed me this money. And the residual checks still keep coming in without my having to collect quarters from many washer/dryer locations or putting up with irate tenants! Good luck to you, Jim. I'm glad to see someone look at this opportunity with an open mind. I'm sure you'll do very well--as long as you don't let Jay talk you out of it!

Yours has been the most thought-out, logical response to this whole thread. I have read many of Jay's tirades against Primerica on this forum but have never replied because I felt it would be like talking to a rock. I was in the industry (not Primerica) for 12 years. For the last five, my income was in the seven figure range. Naturally, that was pre-tax and expenses. But, of course, being in the industry, I knew the proper way to handle it. Because of my production, for several years many benefits, such as office space and furniture, were provided by my primary vendor. These was not considered income, thus had no tax consequences. Secretarial/support duties were performed by my wife from her home office. I totally agree with your comments as to why 'pep' rallies have to be held. I conducted them on a regular basis to encourage our newer reps. Jay may ask why I'm no longer in the industry. My wife and I like to travel. I like to have my summers free for these trips. Conducting classes in Economics at a local university makes it ideal for the lifestyle to which we've become accustomed. We were able to achieve all this because of a company like Primerica. When I was first hired, I had to borrow the $125 (not $199 as with Primerica) from a family member. After becoming licensed, the company reimbursed me this money. And the residual checks still keep coming in without my having to collect quarters from many washer/dryer locations or putting up with irate tenants! Good luck to you, Jim. I'm glad to see someone look at this opportunity with an open mind. I'm sure you'll do very well--as long as you don't let Jay talk you out of it!

I like your honest effort, but I must rebutt you. Quoting: "they of course conveniently don't mention that a very large amount of those reps do absolutely nothing at all." How do you know this Jim? (this is a standard line used by Crimerica shills). I like facts too Jim. For example I know that the average income of all Primericans is less than $6,000 a year (before business expenses). Once you factor in what the fat cats grab for themselves, that does leave less in the pot for the rest to go after. And this is true year after year (one of the main driving factors behind the exodus of over 100,000 agents a year from Crimerica). With regards to the fat cats, name 12 Crimerican officers who came up through the ranks starting as a new agent. How is that for a test? I can go on, but I urge all visitors to read the threads and check other websites.

Jay needs no help however I'm going to try anyway. Jay breaks down Cody's commission rate as 23.6%. Cody ol' boy, I could have signed you up with 100 companies that would have all given you 80% from day #1 AND that would have given your underlings 60% and you 20%, all from day #1. One of the myths Primerica passes to its recruits is that they are the only company out there that gives you the opportunity to earn overrides on other people's production without the expense of running an agency. Tain't true. Get yourself a license and in 15 minutes I can have you on the phone with a half dozen national super agencies that will set you up. In each case instead of being able to offer only the overpriced products of one carrier, you'll be able to offer your clients their choice of a 100 or so name brand carriers. You won't have to give your "warm market" away to someone else. You can get paid full commission on it. The so called training you get from primerica is nothing more than rehearsal in an old fashioned sales track which has been designed to tell each and every client exactly the same thing......they should buy term insurance, invest in mutual funds, and consolidate their debt. If someone is a diabetic, has high cholesterol, high blood pressure or any other number of medical consitions you can still get them term insurance at a reasonable price. Now all you can do is walk away. Primerica sold Cody a Yugo and convinced him it was a Lexus.

Jay needs no help however I'm going to try anyway. Jay breaks down Cody's commission rate as 23.6%. Cody ol' boy, I could have signed you up with 100 companies that would have all given you 80% from day #1 AND that would have given your underlings 60% and you 20%, all from day #1. One of the myths Primerica passes to its recruits is that they are the only company out there that gives you the opportunity to earn overrides on other people's production without the expense of running an agency. Tain't true. Get yourself a license and in 15 minutes I can have you on the phone with a half dozen national super agencies that will set you up. In each case instead of being able to offer only the overpriced products of one carrier, you'll be able to offer your clients their choice of a 100 or so name brand carriers. You won't have to give your "warm market" away to someone else. You can get paid full commission on it. The so called training you get from primerica is nothing more than rehearsal in an old fashioned sales track which has been designed to tell each and every client exactly the same thing......they should buy term insurance, invest in mutual funds, and consolidate their debt. If someone is a diabetic, has high cholesterol, high blood pressure or any other number of medical consitions you can still get them term insurance at a reasonable price. Now all you can do is walk away. Primerica sold Cody a Yugo and convinced him it was a Lexus.

Jay needs no help however I'm going to try anyway. Jay breaks down Cody's commission rate as 23.6%. Cody ol' boy, I could have signed you up with 100 companies that would have all given you 80% from day #1 AND that would have given your underlings 60% and you 20%, all from day #1. One of the myths Primerica passes to its recruits is that they are the only company out there that gives you the opportunity to earn overrides on other people's production without the expense of running an agency. Tain't true. Get yourself a license and in 15 minutes I can have you on the phone with a half dozen national super agencies that will set you up. In each case instead of being able to offer only the overpriced products of one carrier, you'll be able to offer your clients their choice of a 100 or so name brand carriers. You won't have to give your "warm market" away to someone else. You can get paid full commission on it. The so called training you get from primerica is nothing more than rehearsal in an old fashioned sales track which has been designed to tell each and every client exactly the same thing......they should buy term insurance, invest in mutual funds, and consolidate their debt. If someone is a diabetic, has high cholesterol, high blood pressure or any other number of medical consitions you can still get them term insurance at a reasonable price. Now all you can do is walk away. Primerica sold Cody a Yugo and convinced him it was a Lexus.

Jay needs no help however I'm going to try anyway. Jay breaks down Cody's commission rate as 23.6%. Cody ol' boy, I could have signed you up with 100 companies that would have all given you 80% from day #1 AND that would have given your underlings 60% and you 20%, all from day #1. One of the myths Primerica passes to its recruits is that they are the only company out there that gives you the opportunity to earn overrides on other people's production without the expense of running an agency. Tain't true. Get yourself a license and in 15 minutes I can have you on the phone with a half dozen national super agencies that will set you up. In each case instead of being able to offer only the overpriced products of one carrier, you'll be able to offer your clients their choice of a 100 or so name brand carriers. You won't have to give your "warm market" away to someone else. You can get paid full commission on it. The so called training you get from primerica is nothing more than rehearsal in an old fashioned sales track which has been designed to tell each and every client exactly the same thing......they should buy term insurance, invest in mutual funds, and consolidate their debt. If someone is a diabetic, has high cholesterol, high blood pressure or any other number of medical consitions you can still get them term insurance at a reasonable price. Now all you can do is walk away. Primerica sold Cody a Yugo and convinced him it was a Lexus.

Let me start with a bit of a disclaimer. I am not a representative of Primerica. I was contacted by a rep from Primerica about 4 weeks ago and since then have been going to their meetings and working with the person who *may* become my upline if I decide to become part of the organization. I have also spent considerable time looking up information, both positive and negative, about Primerica. Since I've yet to obtain enough information to make a decision, Primerica has yet to recieve my one hundred ninety nine dollars. Enough on that. I've read many of the threads on this site as well as all of the information available on Primericabuster.com so I'm not ignorant of the issues presented by all of the Primerica detractors out there. I've noticed a few flaws in some of the statements made here, just as there were some on Ken Youngs site, so I felt compelled to add a few comments of my own. Since Ken has locked all of the threads on his message board, sadly I was unable to respond to any of his comments. One thing in particular I would like to say about Mr. Young is that I'm saddened that someone his age (look at his picture) who claims to be such a distinguished member of the insurance industry can't refrain from stooping to name calling. Those of you who have been to his site know what I'm referring to. It seems that in his opinion, anyone who works for Primerica is a "dork". Impressive Mr. Young. When my children were 6 years old they also liked to call people "dorks" but they grew out of it quickly. It's surprising to learn that without knowing all of those 100,000+ people that he is apparently omniscient and therefore able to judge every one of them and call them "dorks". Fortunately, most of the posters on this board seem to have a bit more maturity. It's very likely that I'll bounce around a bit in referring to some of the things posted on this thread but I'll try to make sense of it for you. Not being an employee of Primerica as of yet, I'm obviously unable to respond to everything in Jay's "Primerica test". Luckily for me I'm not dumb enough to try to argue points on which I have insufficient knowledge or training. However, you will find that it doesn't take a genius to make mistakes and provide deceptive information as Jay does in a few cases. Once again, please keep in mind I don't work for, and may never work for Primerica. I am by nature a bit of an instigator and so these threads are fun for me. Let me start by quoting a section of your "test" for you. "Economic Analysis: The efficient market hypothesis suggests (and I paraphrase) that prices and/or returns in a particular market (more commonly the financial market) already reflect all known information and therefore display the collective benefits of all current investors and future prospects. This means (literally) that it is impossible to outperform a market by using information the market already knows, except through luck and/or inside trading informationwhether you enter the market now or in the future. [Source: the writings of Eugene Fama, "The Foundations of Finance" and "The Theory of Finance". Eugene Fama was a 2003 candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize in Finance/Economics] Result: Using this hypothesis, this would suggest that Primerica will always have 5% of the reps in their company making over $50-100K and the remainder making significantly less. Acknowledging insider trading is illegal, this would further suggest that the only way to excel to the top 5%, you have to be lucky or do something illegal and/or unethical. Question: Applying this well-known economic hypothesis to Primerica's system, how does a Primerica representative (current and future) outperform current members of the financial industry, as well as, seasoned members of Primerica using the same or similar information? Argumentative analysis: It has been proven that Primerica has a boilerplate' system, IT WILL NEVER CHANGE. Therefore, current and future reps are [and will be] exposed to the same system (information) meaning the returns in this specific market (system) are already exhausted. This guarantees the company will always consist of, for lack of better words, 5% winners and 95% losers (based on the current number of people making at or in excess of $50-100K/year divided by the total amount of representatives). The efficient markets theory (in relationship to the hypothesis) further suggests market factors will naturally adjust to cause the system to remain consistent. In an effort to circumvent Primerica's system, one would have to operate illegally and unethically. You can also apply this theory to the financial products Primerica is selling and claiming greater returns. An analysis of Primerica's financial products as it relates to the efficient markets hypothesis (and theory) will be completed once a Primerica representative submits their answers to the test." After a Primerica rep attempted to respond to your thread one of your comments was: "Also, do you understand what the word indirectly means? Based on your response, you don't because it simply means, for example, one may do something in a round about way, in some way, circuitously!" Let's have some fun and apply your own logic to your own comments shall we? First off, in a follow up response to someone you said this: "INTRO: "READING IS FUNDAMENTAL Take your time and read, please! If you can't pronounce words use your vowels. Also, if you don't know what something means, grab a dictionary, encyclopedia, or go on the internet!" You might consider taking your own advice before you click on that cute little submit button down there. hypothesis ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-pth-ss) n. pl. hypotheses (-sz) 1. A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation. 2. Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption. The antecedent of a conditional statement. You use the word hypothesis five times in that statement (unless I miscounted). Here's another one I like: theory ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-r, thr) n. pl. theories 1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. 2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory. 3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics. 4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory. 5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime. 6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture. Let's see what we have here. Notice that none of the definitions for theory say anything about it being a fact. As you can see in the last definition, a theory is an assumption; a guess. So, in what may or may not have been an attempt to sound intellectual, you based that portion of your argument on hypotheses and theories. It's quite possible that in the history of mankind there have been more unsuccessful theories than successful ones. That portion of your original posting just became invalid, sorry. You insist on anyone responding to your question should be prepared to submit documentation. The rules should apply equally to all parties wouldn't you say? Let's try this one: "-Question 4- Explain the concept of sustained competitive advantage'. Primerica and its representatives indirectly claim to hold such an advantage, so they should have a grasp on its underlying principle." I like how you sidestep the need to show any factual proof of your claim by stating that reps "indirectly claim" to have an advantage. Either show some factual proof or admit that this is nothing more than your personal opinion. My apologies for bouncing around a bit as opposed to going in order, I'm jumping back and forth between two browser windows, reading the thread in one and responding in the other while constantly being attacked by my seventeen month old grandson so bear with me :) "-Question 5- List why you feel an individual with no educational or career background in finance can give an expert, informed, subjective financial analysis and why you feel an individual who HAS that background and experience, can not?" I suppose many people will have a different experience, however so far after weeks of talking to the people trying to recruit me, not once has anyone stated they or anyone else in the organization was "more qualified" than someone with the background and experience you refer to. Perhaps you're dealing with some people that aren't quite up to par in your area. "BONUS QUESTION Can you break down the promotion process, in detail? Be sure to explain how a representative can receive two 48% raises in their first 60-90 days using the accelerated management program'. Does this raise consist of your up-line' receiving a lower commission in addition to your recruits, or does this suggest that the raise comes solely from your recruits which means they (your recruits) are making only 4%?" This is nothing more than semantics. The only word of relevance in this statement is "can". When I tell you that you can become the wealthiest man in the world, it certainly doesn't say you "will". That doesn't make my statement a falsehood in any way. Whether you accomplish this or not is entirely up to you and dependant on your efforts. "DIRECTIONS Please provide a complete, concise, subjective analysis of the material. You will be graded for your understanding of the subject matter; content; and supporting documentation. Failure to do so will result in an F' and further proof on why Primerica's system is flawed." While you're asking how someone from Primerica can make claims about their ability to financially advise someone, please explain how you're qualified to judge respondents to your question and specifically how you can grade something without a scale for everyone to see. Apparently "F" is the only grade available. That covers the original post. Now, I'll move on to your added posts and some of the responses from others. Ah yes. The statistics and averages you used to support your comments. This will be easy. Since I haven't seen the pamphlet you refer to, I'm going to assume the numbers you started with are indeed factual, as I don't see any reason for you to intentionally lie to anyone here. "*Please note: If I account for the number of reps that make between $150K-1M that would lower that number significantly, actually making it a negative number. That means either Primerica is lying about how many people are making this kind of money, or they are lying about how much commissions they paid out. I chose both!" This is absolutely not factual in stating that accounting for the reps you left out brings you to a negative number. Apparently math wasn't your strong point any more than researching your topic was so let me help you out here. There is one major flaw that basically renders all of your equations incorrect and I'll share that with you in a moment. We're going to assume that this is accurate: "Total number of Primerica employees is 100,000. At least 5,000 employees made over $50-100K in 2004. 4,171 (actual number) of 5,000 made around $50-100K (average it to 75K) 40 of 5,000 made at least $1,000,000" For the purpose of this particular argument we'll also assume this is accurate (even though it isn't): "The Shocking Computation: Take 4,171 x $75,000 = $312,825,000 in commissions paid Take 40 x $1,000,000 = $40,000,000 in commissions paid" Sure, the math may be correct but that doesn't make your information correct. The answer will be at the end of this math of yours. Don't go anywhere. Next. "Total commissions paid = $352,825,000 in commissions paid to only 4,211 of the representatives currently employed with Primerica. That leaves $220,175,000 in commissions to be paid out to 95,789 representatives of Primerica. Divide the $220,175,000 by the number of reps left (95,789) and they made an astonishing $2,298.54 per year." Yep. Wrong again. Good thing I'm not grading because you wouldn't be scoring so well. "Seems more like the highway to financial turmoil! Do you honestly believe in Primerica so much, you are willing to get paid $2,300 per yearwhich averages to $44.23 per week, then, you come on this website telling us we're stupid, lazy, and don't want to make any money? Do you realize Central-American illegal immigrants make more than that? You're lucky it's under $7,000 per year or you would have to pay taxes on it!" Uh oh. More misinformation based on lack of knowledge or not enough research. Here's the kicker. Actually two of them. For starters the biggest mistake in all incorrect equation is related once again to semantics. See, while Primerica states they have 100k reps (again using your number to keep things simple) they of course conveniently don't mention that a very large amount of those reps do absolutely nothing at all. Why? For the same reason many other compaines in the world use factual (yet not complete) data to make themselves sound better without actually lying about anything. Want an example? No problem. Years ago I worked at a location that had a sign stating we were "Voted Atlanta's #1 Service Department 4 years in a row!" I asked the owner who had done the voting, since customers were asking me the same thing. Anyone care to guess the answer? He did all the voting himself. Did he lie? Absolutely not. Semantics again. Ever see a commercial for a car or truck stating that the vehicle is #1 in some category then see a small statement flash quickly on the screen showing that it was based on limited data? Sure you have. Is it tricky? Sure. Dishonest? No. Interestingly enough Jay, this isn't too far from the way you handled the information you supplied in this thread. Now let's go back to those reps that are part of Primerica, yet don't actually do anything to generate revenue for the company and therefore don't get paid. Admittedly, wanting to get this post up (it's 11:30 pm right now) I'm not able to get 100% accurate information on exactly how many "active" reps there are. I do know from my previous enquiries with my contacts at Primerica that the number is pretty significant. A good example would be someone who replied on here and stated that right after signing up they found this website and had a change of heart and wanted a refund. That person, though they did nothing to make money, still counts as a rep when they look at how many they have. Now since they did nothing and didn't get paid anything then you certainly can't include them in the inaccurate average income you gave. There are also many reps who ARE actively doing something, yet still genereate little to no income. There are quite a few people in the office I'm dealing with that show up once or twice a month, hope to ocasionally sell something to a family member or friend but never really put much effort into it. I'd be surprised to learn they get paid more than a few hundred dollars per year. Can I support this claim in any way? Why yes I can thanks to you Jay! How about your response after you looked at the income staement sent to you by Cody? Once again we'll assume the information you posted is factual, since in this case the document is no longer available so I can't verify it personally. "3. You have a lot in your down line, 58 to be exact, and 7 of them even got licensed for life insurance. That's 12% of your down line making money; doesn't sound like an efficient system to me. By the way, are you paying 58 people $33.00 for every appointment, since you're the Division Leader? Were you even paying the 7 licensed people $33.00 per appointment? Are they making $2,000 per month off of training, (in addition to allegedly closing loans) also?" Gee, according to you Jay, and the information you provided us from viewing the information Cody gave you, only 12% of his downline generated income. 12%?!?! You mean to tell me only 12% of his people are actively doing anything and making money? Heck I was nice enough to assume 50% of the reps in Primerica were active and it looks like I was waaaay off. Thanks for the help there Jay. Just for fun let's plug in the new numbers shall we? If 88% of the Primerica reps aren't actually getting paid.... hmmmm.... Now if you're still with me here Jay, and you know more about math than how to read a pamphlet and use a calulator, by now you (and everyone else) should be realizing that the numbers are going to change significantly. Are we talking world shattering here? Nope. If, for example, we were to say that half of the low end earners (95,789 representatives using your math) did nothing other than sign up, then by golly the ones who did something are now making a whopping $4597.08. Someone get Bill gates on the phone, alot of people are closing on him fast. Having as much fun as I am? Good, we're not done yet. The next mistake is your use of averages to make the equation work for you. Bzzzt! Wrong again. See, there are significantly more people near the 50k range than near the 100k range. Just for fun let's say 80% of the people in that particular range (which is much more likely than simply saying they all make 75k) are making 50-60k. The higher up the income chart you go, the faster the number of people in that range drops. The true average most definitely wouldn't be 75k as you stated. The remaining 20% of the people would be making between 60-100k but we'll say they all make 100k. These numbers would be more accurate if you had thought it through a bit more. Now of course without hard data, I can't state that this is totally accurate either and I don't pretend to. I'm simply showing how it affects the numbers you erroneously posted. Let's do the math again shall we? 4,171 (actual number) of 5,000 made around $50-100K. Of those, 80% made 50-60k (we'll call it 60k) so: 4171 x .8 = 3336.8 I'm going to call that 3336 and add that last person to the high end to help you out. Now then: 4171 - 3336 = 835 Those are all making 100k by the way. so: 3336 x 60,000 = 200,160,000 835 x 100,000 = 83,500,000 200,160,000 + 83,500,000 = 283,660,000. Whoa. What happened here? Your math gave a total of 312,825,000. Hmmm. 312,825,000 - 283,660,000 = 29,165,000 That's not exactly chump change now is it? Now let's add that total to (again using your numbers) the remaining amount paid to all the reps that aren't making any real money. 220,175,000 + 29,165,000 = 249,340,000 Now the average (which we already know is skewed and inaccurate by the incomplete information you used) for the remaining 95,789 reps goes up to: 249,340,000 / 95789 = 2603.01 Still not what one would call impressive is it? Nope. Of course if you remember to throw out the half of the reps that are doing nothing at all and therefore not getting paid you get: 2603.01 x 2 = 5206.02 Certainly nothing you or I can live off of is it? Nope. Oh wait. There's more. I seem to have exhausted the maximum available space for a single post on here so I'll have to continue on a new one. Follow me everyone. In the last episode, we showed a googleplex of flaws (yes I'm being facetious, don't be silly and hold me to it) in Jay's information in his attempt to discredit Primerica and it's employees. If you haven't read the first post I made in reply, stop now and go read it. Hurry up, we won't wait long. Go. Let me reiterate for those of you who may have missed it in my first post. I do NOT currently work for Primerica. I have never worked for them in the past. I HAVE been contacted by someone who is trying to recruit me. Being a semi-intelligent individual, I set out to do quite a bit of research before making a decision. Do I think Primerica is a perfect company and therefore feel a need to defend them? PLEASE! I see some things about the system that give me pause which is how I wound up here. However, I absolutely am VERY guilty of being an instigator. When I'm unable to start something though, I'll happily jump in and happily point out flaws in given argument. Poor Jay is the unfortunate person currently under fire here. I suppose this is only because on this site Primerica is without a doubt a huge underdog. I won't lose any sleep if I uncover information that causes me to decline the offer to join Primerica, as I am already gainfully employed. Ok enough of that, now back to the good stuff. When we left the last post, Jay was reeling from the exposure of his use of inaccurate or incomplete information. Someone get him some pain relievers please, I'm not done yet. So far, I've shown how his attempt to come off as an intellectual with his original post failed beginning with question #4. Ok I did it out of order.... fire me. Since I don't work for Primerica, I certainly wasn't able to answer the first 3 questions, but I didn't need to answer those to render the rest of his post pointless. Next, we went to his follow up post where he attempted to back up his first post through the use of some type of new math. Back to remedial classes for poor Jay. The $2,300 per year he claimed 95.789% of the reps make grew to $5206.02 at the end of my last post. Really. Go read it. Let me move on to this comment from our friend Jay: "Seems more like the highway to financial turmoil! Do you honestly believe in Primerica so much, you are willing to get paid $2,300 per yearwhich averages to $44.23 per week, then, you come on this website telling us we're stupid, lazy, and don't want to make any money? Do you realize Central-American illegal immigrants make more than that? You're lucky it's under $7,000 per year or you would have to pay taxes on it!" http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1405.html Go there and you'll find that: "Another way to think about immigrant's relative position to natives is to look at household income. The average annual household income of immigrant-headed households is $56,289, compared to $61,098 for native households. The difference of 9 percent, while not trivial, is not huge. However, immigrant households are a good deal larger on average than native households -- 3.1 persons versus 2.5 persons. As a result, the per capita household income of immigrants is only 72 percent that of natives -- $17,884 versus $24,901" Look at the last line. This data include *legal* immigrants as well as *illegal* ones. Anyone care to wager as to whether the legal ones cause this number to be higher than it is for illegal ones? No? Didn't think so. Now if the Primerica reps are making $5206 per year, that's still $12,678 less than our immigrant friends isn't it? Since there is a severe lack of hard data that shows how much *illegal* immigrants actually make (since providing the information would almost certainly create problems for the company reporting this information) it's a little difficult to compare the income of an illegal immigrant to someone at Primerica. The gap however is not what it seems. Why not? Well because of the other critical error our friend Jay made when putting together his information. It's so incredibly tempting to use all caps here because it should be so obvious if he (and others) had only paid attention. I'll resist the urge though. The vast majority of the people that work for Primerica....drumroll please... Work only part time. GASP! Really. By all means Jay, go check it out. Boy that really screws up your comment comparing the immigrants doesn't it? Let me throw out another item that changes all the math drastically. Ironically the information was provided by none other than Jay. This was after Jay reviewed the income document kindly provided by one of the Primerica reps Jay asked to respond to his fantasy "test": "3. You have a lot in your down line, 58 to be exact, and 7 of them even got licensed for life insurance. That's 12% of your down line making money; doesn't sound like an efficient system to me. By the way, are you paying 58 people $33.00 for every appointment, since you're the Division Leader? Were you even paying the 7 licensed people $33.00 per appointment? Are they making $2,000 per month off of training, (in addition to allegedly closing loans) also?" Wait a minute!! You mean to tell me that when I said that as much as 50% of the 100k reps in primerica don't actually make money because they aren't selling anything, I was that far off? Wow. Let's plug in the 12% instead of 50% shall we? 95,789 x .12 = 11,494.68 If only 12% of the reps used on Jay's original equation were actually active and making money then our new average income would be (based on his original numbers): 220,175,000 / 11,495 = 19,153.97 Hmmm. Now of those 11,495 that are actively making money, how many of them are full time and how many part time? Simply amazing. In case you missed it we passed the *illegal* immigrants you referred to Jay. As all of you can certainly guess, the part timers will make less than the full timers. We're only dealing with the bottom 95% of the reps here. It's suddenly stating to look more like the full timers at least might be starting to approach a workable income. Just for fun let's say we stick with the idea that 50% of the reps actually get paid, which means $5,200 per year (based on Jay's numbers). That of course averages out to $100.00 per week. In the 4 weeks since I started talking to the person that contacted me, I've gone to every single opportunity meeting and training session they've had. I've also gone in to have my possible upline train me how they do things. Now the meetings/training occur on Tuesdays from 6:30pm to 7:30pm and Saturdays from 8:30am-9:30am (for the opp meeting) and 10am-11am for the training. This means 3.5 hours total per week for those sessions. I have yet to spend more than an additional 2 hours in any week for additional "training" so we're up to 5.5 hours per week. We'll assume all reps duplicate this for the sake of the math. They also have to arrange and go to presentations at the homes of people they wish to try to sell to. We're talking part timers here, who aren't doing a massive amount of work. The presentations take 1-2 hours typically (so I'm told) so if you did 5 per week at an average of 1.5 hours each, that puts the total hours for the week at 13. From what I've learned so far, few of the people who work part time and aren't serious actually do that many presentations so I'm being generous to help out Jay. 100 / 13 = 7.69 Yep. That's $7.69 per hour for working part time. Now demographics can change things dramatically but to give you a comparison, I have an 18 year old daughter who is currently looking for a part time job in our area. Do you know how many places she has been that pay part time employees $7.69/hr or more? None so far. We live in the metro Atlanta area by the way. That's not exactly Smalltown, USA where no one pays good money. There are only a handfull of markets in the U.S. that pay 13 hour a week employees that much money. Even then it's only because everything in those areas is proportionately more expensive (700k for a 2 bedroom 1200 square foot home in L.A. anyone?). I don't think I'm ever going to finish this. So many flaws Jay. Time to pick some things out at random here. All of the following are comments/responses from Jay unless stated otherwise. "The Bonus Question It's funny, your raise level says that if you do $7,500 dollars a month in yearly life premiums (and have 3 direct districts), then you will be Regional. Well you have submitted $117,585 worth of premiums over the past year, unless you don't have 3 direct districts, shouldn't you be Regional already? Cody, this is not a generalization, this is what YOU SUBMITTED! Also, how do you make commissions off of any financial product that is sold, if you don't have your license and yet you're still making commissions off of the sale of financial products, that, my friend, IS ILLEGAL! Again, the theory of overriding more people is erroneous, because if those people are not generating any income there is nothing to override. That's why YOU HAVE 58 PEOPLE IN YOUR DOWN LINE AND ONLY MAKE $27,000!" Am I the only person who sees how you very likely answered your own question? I'm going to go out on a limg and guess he doesn't have3 direct districts yet. That was a tough one. "By the way, CODY, PRIMERICA (REPS) DO NOT HAVE A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE! To have a competitive advantage (sustained), your profits must exceed the average for your industry and it doesn't; your cost must be lower than the average and it isn't (based on the fact that Primerica forwards all of the cost to the reps). Go to a financial website and check if you don't believe me! There are companies that cater to the middle class in the financial market and are doing extremely better than Primerica in terms of the products they distribute; the cost of those products; and the expertise they give the consumer. Want to know one, Ameriprise Financial Services, listed on the NYSE as AMP. They have a greater market share, and I'm sure you've seen the commercials; they do cater to the middle class! Primerica is the sticky stuff at the bottom of the barrel in the financial services industry!" Where on earth did you get your definition of competitive advantage?? advantage ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-vntj) n. 1. A beneficial factor or combination of factors. 2. Benefit or profit; gain: It is to your advantage to invest wisely. 3. A relatively favorable position; superiority of means: A better education gave us the advantage. Sports. 4. The first point scored in tennis after deuce. The resulting score. For starters, I've already shown that you claimed that Primerica "indirectly" says they have a competitive advantage, yet you offer no proof other than your opinion. To have an advantage, you only need to offer something most if not all of your competitors offer. It doesn't even have to be the "total package". Name me a single company that offers the same range of services as Primerica, and also will come to your home to help you with those services. In the Atlanta area, I've yet to find a single one. I admit I've only talked to 5 companies, which happened to include State Farm and Prudential. They aren't very big companies anyway so maybe I shouldn't use them as an example.... Simply offering something your competition doesn't is enough to "claim" to have a competitive advantage. Sorry Jay. "YOUR INCOME: In looking at your income, okay, you're one of the people who just MAY make good with Primerica's flawed system. However, as I look further, you have only made $27,745.00 in the past 12 months. You have submitted $117,585 in premiums in the past 12 months which means you're making around 23.6% off of your sales. If I'm reading it wrong, then, hey, you left a lot of room for interpretation. But, if I am reading it right, then what the hell are you bragging about? I make $27,700 in my sleep (I'll explain this to you below)!" Didn't think this one through too well either did you Jay? For starters, it would help to know what amount of income he replaced when he went full time with Primerica. Cody stated he is a 19 year old former college student. Probably not much money. Just to be fair let me do my homework. http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032005/perinc/new01_010.htm If you check that information from the census bureau, you'll find that out of the 14.2 million males in the United States in the 15-24 age group, 86.5% of them made less than $27,700 per year. That puts Cody into the top 13.5% in the country for his age group. I'd say Cody is doing just fine without your help Jay. "Answer to question three: Do you think I was that stupid to continue on with that mess, please! As I stated in the beginning of my comments, I make $27,000 in my sleep. Check this out: although my 6 4-unit apartments give me hell, they provide a gross income of $15,600 per month. I also have income coming from 24 washers and 24 dryers, so you see Cody, that's effective gross income of $189,200 per year (before operating expenses, debt services, depreciation, and taxes). Remember Cody, this is MY PART TIME JOB, in my full time job; I make around $48,000 per year (before tax and adjusted for overtime). I file taxes, a Schedule E (rents and royalties) and NO, I didn't have or need any down line." Your apartments give you hell eh? So you have a full time job with some occasional overtime (according to you) AND you manage 24 apartments, 24 washers, and 24 dryers in your spare time correct? Am I the only one wondering when you find time to sleep, much less have time to have a personal life? Hey, you're the one that said your tenants give you hell not me. I'll bet Cody sees his girlfriend/wife more than you do. I'm not even adding in the time you spend on here venting about Primerica... or do you do that on company time at your full time job? Shame on you. "A few things to consider, before you try to break down anything that I write, study up. One, you used the word, vicarious out of context, so why would you even be able to understand how to correlate the efficient markets hypothesis to Primerica's financial system." I love this one. Mom always said "Practice what you preach." Try it sometime Jay. "As for the evidence you presented here, thanks, because it gives us one of the greatest examples of how Primerica is deceptive and vague. I wonder was that story about the population the same story your RVP gave you. If so, tell him/her to think of another one, it's not working." Deceptive and vague? While you certainly weren't vague, you erroneous information was most definitely deceptive. deceptive adj 1: causing one to believe what is not true or fail to believe what is true; "deceptive calm"; "a delusory pleasure" [syn: delusory] 2: tending to deceive or mislead either deliberately or inadvertently; "the deceptive calm in the eye of the storm"; "deliberately deceptive packaging"; "a misleading similarity"; "statistics can be presented in ways that are misleading" [syn: misleading] Look at number 2. Especially notice the word inadvertently. See, you don't have to be trying to deliberately mislead anyone to be deceptive. You only have to be wrong to do that, and wrong you are on many points Jay. Then there are the intangibles to factor into the world of Primerica. Based on everything you've stated just in this one thread, it's obvious you've never had any type of job that paid you commission based on sales. Once more you failed to do your homework. It is a very common practice in sales to have the occasional "pep rally" to keep the employees pumped up. Why do they engage in such a silly activity with adults you ask? You're math is fuzzy, and your research skills are lacking and to top it off you know little or nothing about the way the human mind works. Let me help you out here. Jay, do you know how to ride a bike? Most people do so we'll assume (a dangerous thing here) that you do. You can interchange bike riding with swimming or something else for this simple exercise if you like. I use bike riding because it reminds me of teaching my oldest daughter how to ride in less than 10 minutes after her month failed to do it in a week. For most people the experience is somewhat similar. Mom or dad finally takes off those training wheels and you're all nervous and scared and yet excited at the same time because you're about to become one of "the big kids". Of course the excitement wears off a bit after the first few times you fall down and get hurt doesn't it? For many kids, suddenly you don't want to ride that bike as much because you keep failing. I remember being 6 and I practically screamed to get off my bike after the first few falls. Why couldn't my daughter learn to ride after her mother tried for a week? Why was I able to show her in 10 minutes? Simple. Positive reinforcement and belief. After a couple of tries her mother said aloud "This is useless, this will never work. You're never going to learn how to do this just go inside." I neglected to add we were divorced so I wasn't there to prevent that. My ex wife called me and asked me to come over because she gave up trying to show my daughter how to do it. No problem. I did the same thing my ex did in that I ran along beside my daughter holding the back of the bike several times. I had already talked to her and told her I was proud of her and I was absolutely certain she could do it and she had a big smile on her face. She fell quickly the first couple of tries but we of course tried again and on the third try I kept telling her I was there holding onto the bar on back of the bike until she was ready to tell me to let go, but I had actually let go already and she never knew it. We started over a couple of times and I did the same thing and she was riding all by herself! Then I stopped and told here that I hadn't been holding onto the bike and she was actually riding by herself and she was shocked! Now she didn't "think" she could ride her bike, she "knew" it without a doubt. From that point on she rode without help. Sure she fell some until she got better, but in many cases (when I had her with me) I would simply pick her up and encourage her and off she went to ride her bike. The reps are the kids learning to ride a bike and the pep rally is the parent showing them positive reinforcement and believing that they can do it. More than any other job or industry that I'm personally aware of, sales is the worst for people quitting quickly due to a few early failures. So to counter that, you keep them positive and pump them up regularly until they eventually don't need it. Next thing you know you're the one leading the rally. There is nothing easy about trying to sell products to a consumer when you're strictly paid on commissions. Sadly this causes some people to act irresponsibly and they may deceive people to make a sale. This happens in every single industry that has commission based sales. This doesn't make the company or all of the employees bad. With thousands of agents out there trying to sell the idea and/or products of Primerica, it's no surprise some of you may have found some of the bad seeds. I'll bet 90% of the people who have posted on here have at some time in thier lives seen a co-worker do something unethical. A good example is taking something trivial from work like some paper from the copier to take home for their printer. That's stealing folks. I don't see anyone posting about that, and it's much worse than someone trying to sell you an idea. Is Primerica a bad company? Are they any worse than other similar companies? Let me offer some more information for you to digest. I went to the Better Business Bureau website and checked out Primerica, State Farm, and Progressive Insurance. The BBB shows how many complaints were filed against the companies for the past 36 months and here's how it worked out: State Farm had 236 complaints nationally. Progressive had 388 nationally. Primerica had 46 nationally. It's also interesting to note that only Primerica is actually a member of the BBB! It's only fair to mention that both Progressive and State Farm have a larger customer base than Primerica, otherwise things would even out a bit more. However, the number of complaints lodged against Primerica on a percentage basis turns out to be about average. What a horrible company! How many of you out there knew that lawyers can take classes and purchase books that specifically teach them how to manipulate data and statistics to get virtually any result they like? You don't need a book or a class to do that as Jay and I have shown here. Is my information 100% accurate? Absolutely not. since I don't have actual incomes for every employee of Primerica, my numbers are also going to be wrong. They are however considerably closer to accurate than Jay's are. I didn't make an effort to twist statistics to help myself out but if I did it would look like this: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/876410/posts Now a little something about myself before I end this. If you made it this far you may or may not be surprised to learn I have a ninth grade education and a GED. Many people equate this with a lack of intelligence. I also happen to be a member of Mensa which requires that your IQ be in the top 2% of the world. Not U.S., but the world. I lack much in formal education sadly, but I'm far from stupid. I also happen to suffer from ADD, the primary downside for me being that I have alot of difficulty focusing and extremely poor retention. Talk about getting shafted. I was lucky enough to have above average intellect yet I can't remember a d**n thing. Does this make me better than any of you? Not even remotely. Most of you are very likely more mature and responsible than I am and don't have a poor memory to hold you back. I'm also very shy and introverted which means I'm not much of a people person and am almost terrified of groups of people. Now ask yourself "why in the hell would someone like that want to work for Primerica which would require them to regularly deal with groups and also to go out and recruit people??". Good question. I'll give you the same answer I gave my potential upline. It's not about the money for me. That's just a bonus. See, unlike my friend Jay, I understand fairly well how the mind works, and I also recognize how mine works against me which is why I am shy and introverted. I have resigned myself to the fact that I am unable to fix this on my own and need some help. Many of you call it brainwashing, I prefer something closer to programming or even just changing habits. It's a documented fact that if you surround yourself with negative people and attitudes then you will fall into this category yourself eventually (there are of course exceptions to every rule). The same applies to the opposite. I realize that if I surround myself with people that always talk and act positively, eventually my mindset will also change. That's what I'm after. The chance of making some money is just a bonus. Besides, it can't all be lies. I've seen the income statements of 4 of the full time reps. The RVP made 180k last year. Sure that's before expenses and taxes. When you say you make over 180k yourself Jay, that's before and expenses too. I wonder if he works as many hours as you do? So far I have yet to hear him say that any of his customers gives him hell. It's almost 4am so I need to wrap this up, perhaps I'll make another post later and address many of the other things that were incorrect as posted by Jay and others. Don't fuss at me too much for spelling or grammar if you don't mind I'm usually good at spelling but my grammar stinks. Jay, if I've managed to offend you, allow me to apologize since it wasn't my intent to offend. Now, if I got you worked up that's another story, I won't apologize for that :) In some of your responses you weren't always nice to people who were kind enough to reply to you and occasionally you were pretty harsh. Hope you can take it as well as dish it out. When I make my next post I'll address The error's on the part of Timothy from Valparaiso. He didn't think his information through either when he said: "So, if paying off the debt in a shorter period is the way to go, AND the expected rate of return is 10-12%, then the APR on Primerica financing MUST exceed 10-12% for the financial plan to be solid. And this, definitively, is NOT a good financial plan because the average ROR will be (at least today, and historically) higher than the average APR." Take care all.

These people called me today for a new office in chillicothe, Ohio.. Thank you for all of your info on Casto's co.

My brother's friend was in this ridiculous scheme. He paraded around like he was a financial advisor. In reality he was an aquarium cleaner at the zoo. That is what Primerica is comprimised of, people who are in low level jobs, who come to a meeting once a week and think they are financial advisors. I actually went to one of those rah rah meetings. None of these people have a financial background, they just like the title, this ridiculous scheme tries to deem them. The RVP who did te presentation had a very bad perm and a dirty suit but these leeches cheered after every sentence he said. They steal $200 from people who work really hard for that money, and if they pass the life insurance test, they consider themselves financial experts. The life insurance license is an easy 80 question test where you only need a 70% to pass. These RVP's are people who have sold like 5 plans and recruited X amount of people, and they call those people RVP's. I wish this company would just fold and stop taking advantage of the uneducated to make them feel important, because that is all Primerica is. And anytime these "reps" are called out on thier income they run, because at most they make $4000 yearly if thier good. I can't see why I would be insurance from an aquarium cleaner, when i can buy it from a real professional, that sells it for a living? These people come fom all walks of life, I am sure several have waited on me at Mcdonalds, but anyway they are what they are.

Keith and Adonia probably won't be back in this thread. Just like Cody and Jim they drop their bullsh_t and leave! Speaking of Cody and Jim Cody and Jim fit the profile of what Jon Taylor expressed in his report on MLMs perfectly. I speak of these individuals because they were, at one point, adamant in defending Primerica. You can see comments they've submitted in several threads concerning Primerica. A question to everyone: Do you think, they (Primerica reps) mentioned this website to their RVPs? I would have to say, NO! I think they would be uncomfortable addressing this situation with their RVP. This website has created some doubt in Primerica for them and they are afraid their RVP will scold them for feeling that way. It has been a little over a month since Cody responded to this thread. That can be for two reasons, he either refuses to return to this website because he thinks he's done his job of defending Primerica, or he's realized that his comments had no merit and he got caught in a lot of lies and misrepresentations. This surprises me because at the end of his statement towards me, his suggested he was looking forward to our next conversation. It's been a little over 3 weeks for Jim whose comments everyone seems to agree are unwarranted, uneducated, etc. (which is still surprising for a teacher) Cody's Situation- What's sad about Cody's situation is he's a motivated young man that should have stayed in school. I doubt he was pursuing a Master's Degree (unless he's a child prodigy) because he claims he's only 19 (age of the majority of 2nd year undergrad students). Regardless of that, a degree in software engineering would have landed him a job making in excess of 50K in his first year after college (based on RITs projected salary information, see www.rit.edu). With his ambition, I'm sure Cody could make it to the top of any decent company fast. For arguments sake, he did make it to the Division Leader level in Primerica, although he doesn't realize that Division Leader is nothing but a title and he has not even cleared 30K yet! If Cody takes a good look at the income he is making ($27,745) and the amount of premiums he submitted ($117,585), he getting cheated in some way, shape, form, or fashion. Based on commission rates he provided, he should be getting paid 60% commissions off his life insurance premiums (based on the Division Leader rate). That equates to $70,551, however, he proved that he's only pulling in $27,745. That's again 23.6% of his sales; not even what the commission a rep (25%) should be making. This comes from A PROBLEMATIC GLITCH in the Primerica compensation system (see #10 in Jon Taylor's report). The difference in income he received is 60.6%. If that difference comes from his up line(s) overriding his income then Primerica definitely fits the profile Jon Taylor described. If it doesn't; then where does it come from? With the explanation of the difference between earns and advances (Thanks Anthony), over 75% of the income he received was an advance. I noticed he was, in fact, sent a lot of checks for amounts of $10-60 dollars; all of them were in the earns category. I pray his clients don't cancel their insurance, because that would be a large chargeback check Cody would have to write considering Primerica is his only form of income. Following Cody's commission rates and Anthony's breakdown, Cody was supposed to get $52,913.25 in an advance and $17,637.75 in actual earnings. UNFORTUNATELY (for Cody) HE DIDN'T! Jim's Situation- I can not picture Jim being a teacher, if so, what subject? His comments lack the professionalism and content I would assume a teacher's writing skills would present. He doesn't even attempt to make a justified argument; he just wants to be on record that he spoke up for Primerica. I personally don't think he is a teacher, but I think he said he was because my initial report was set up as though I was a teacher handing out a test. He probably doesn't think I caught that, but I did. I can't say a lot about Jim, except for the fact that he is not the brightest light in the room. Honestly, I have not seen anyone that has come into this thread (or others) from Primerica that, beyond their loquacious nature, had any real level of intelligence. To the intellectually deprived, Primerica reps seem intelligent due to that talkative nature. They will accomplish one of two things: One, annoy you; or two, get your business! Mostly all they really have to say when you confront them about their income is the common excuse, I'm not making the big bucks yet, but my up line is! Jim: Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month Although I'm not there yet, my uplines are. And, if I follow their lead and do what they did, I'll be there too! Cody: I am months away from being a Regional Vice President, making far more than I would have with a Master's Degree in Software Engineering from the Rochester Institute of Technology And, by company guidelines, could have been a VP months ago. [He's speculating, he's already two steps away from RVP and doesn't make over $30K] Enough here, I don't need to go any further. My point for submitting this is that if you read Cody and Jim's comments, even reread other comments made by other Primerica reps, analyze those comments using Jon Taylor's report, you will find that these people can not see past the dream that Primerica will make them rich. Think about this; Primerica is saying that the Average Joe/Jane' with no education, experience, etc. can own and run a financial services business and do extremely well at it. Basically saying, You're in the right place at the right time and Don't let this opportunity pass you by. Like I said before, I am in the process of filing a complaint, I WILL PROVE that Primerica, in its unethical recruiting practices and its bad advice on mortgage (predatory lendingcoercing consumers to accept high interest on loan under the guise of paying a mortgage off faster), has violated the rules and regulations that govern them (via NASD).

It seems as if Primerica reps are always talking about "someone needs to do some research" yet they fail to do accurate, objective research themselves. Looking at Primerica's website does not constitute research. The fact that Primerica is registered with the NASD means absolutely nothing to their legitimacy. N.A.S.D. stands for National Association of Securities Dealers, nothing else. PRIMERICA REPS READ CLOSELY, YOU MAY FINALLY LEARN SOMETHING, "YOU DISTRIBUTE FINANCIAL PRODUCTS REGULATED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT That's the ONLY reason why Primerica is registered with NASD. When you search Primerica (which is listed as PFS Distributors and PFS Investments) it states that fact! Primerica is also registered with dsa.org (direct selling association for multi-level-marketing schemes). They use the power of disclosures and disclaimers to keep themselves out of legal trouble. That's the reason Primerica targets low to middle income people for its clientele and recruiting. These people don't have access to legal counsel like an individual in the upper-income bracket. Primerica's clients and recruits are less likely to pursue legal forms of restitution and they know that! In fact, you all are the "Blind Leading the Blind"! Adonia and Keith; you can tell no one in here anything about research when you come in my thread having typed ONE PARAGRAPH containing NO RESEARCH! Not only that; in what way is someone bashing a company because they're exposing their negative experience or loss as a direct result of their involvement with a particular company? Are you serious?! Another fact, classes to obtain your insurance licenses is one of the cheapest sales licensing programs in Ohio (and I'm sure elsewhere). Aside from that, do you even realize that you don't take an "outside" course for your insurance licensing? All courses are taken THROUGH PRIMERICA at another Primerica office. Why, because that money goes to Primerica corporate. The $199.00 is for those classes and some pseudo mortgage class. It is not even effective! For instance; Cody has 58 people working in his down line and only 7 of them are life licensed. That's a 12% pass rate! The average pass rate for the course taken outside of Primerica is roughly 70% or more. Go ahead; blame it on the individual instead of looking at how flawed the system is! You two are too new to judge anyway! As the saying goes, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR! After all of that, YOU STILL have to pay for your fingerprinting (65.00); pay to take the test (65.00 or more); and that 199.00 you Primericans brag about does not cover your series 63 licensing for mutual funds, which in Ohio will be another 500.00 or more dollars. Do you all pay attention? Are you really that gullible? If so, I am selling rights to the Statue of Liberty for 199.00. You tell a friend and they buy rights, then you get part of their 199.00. Keith, I don't know why you even chose to submit anything! Who ever said Primerica had employees? We did say Primerica is a multi-level-marketing scheme and stand behind that comment! Also Keith, you've proven to me you haven't read a sentence worth of research (like any Primerica rep ever does). All you write in response to a multitude of pages of VALID research is a broken up paragraph saying how much of a joke it (the research) is. That REALLY shows your level of incompetence and your inability to formulate an argument. Even further Keith; you don't even understand what a pyramid (in the business sense) is. A pyramid and a hierarchy in the business world are two different things. A corporate hierarchy is comprised of three levels, Corporate, Managerial, and Operational. A manager's salary IS NOT contingent upon his employee's work efforts. A manager will get paid whether or not an employee is producing. However, their job is to utilize knowledge and talent management principles to put employees in the appropriate areas based on their skills, education, and experience. If an employee is inefficient, they are fired or asked to resign and that ALSO DOES NOT affect the Manager's salary. That, my friend is a hierarchy, not a pyramid like Primerica is using. Pyramids (illegal or otherwise) are set up in a way that the person's cash flow [theoretically at the top of the pyramid] is contingent upon the efforts of their down line. There are no down lines in corporate America Keith. If your down line isn't making money you're not making money. If your down line is not recruiting, then your business is not expanding, therefore, you're not making money. Why, because there are no clients outside of the system. Primerica does not seek clients outside of their recruiting system; therefore, they are considered an illegal pyramid. They don't market their services, they market their recruiting. American Family, Nationwide, etc., for example, market their services. If you want a job with them then you apply and Human Resources handle the rest. You're asked to join Primerica (in some cases begged and harassed). When you're recruited by Primerica you have to give them six or more names of individuals that will allow your up line to give them a free presentation. They call this training, it's not. They're presenting a sales pitch to your family off the strength of your reputation, not Primerica. It works because your family and friends trust YOU not Primerica. They are more likely to allow the sale, because they want to help YOU not Primerica. If you knew anything about organizational behavior, most companies have reverted to TQM (Total Quality Management). TQM is a reverse hierarchy where supervisors and managers focus on supporting employees to do their job better and in a more suitable environment. The idea is that your employees are also your customers! You know what; I'm tired of Primerica and its ignorant reps! If anyone is willing, I will be filing a complaint with the N.A.S.D (that Primerica reps brag they are registered with) in an effort to get Primerica kicked out of the N.A.S.D. and I would like to use your stories. Enough said

"...pyramids are everywhere...." But Keith, you just said that Crimerica doesn't have employees meaning that all you can look forward to is a commission check assuming you're licensed. It appears that most people still derive their income from a salary (even some from salary and commission or just commission at other companies). What makes Crimerica special is that the overwheming lion's share of money that's made goes to the fat cats which is why I call it a "pyramid-schemed" type of company. When you work at a salary-based type of job, you're guaranteed a certain level of income depending on how many hours you work and not depending on what others do - that's not a pyramid. Crimerica, on the other hand, the real money is derived from your bloated downline. Where's the downline at a McDonald's or IBM or Vonage (just to mention, the average agent of 100,000+ at Crimerica makes less than $6,000 a year which anyone at McDonalds can top). Now Keith I have a message for you which you can pass around at the interview meetings. It goes like this: "Victim of a consumer Rip-off? Want justice? Rip-off Report is a worldwide consumer reporting Website & Publication, by consumers, for consumers, to file & document complaints about companies or individuals who ripoff consumers." You have no business being here doing shilling for Crimerica as you're not helping victims. Apparently you have no life and you must find those Crimerica meetings boring so I suggest you hand out pamphlets at the next meeting giving the real truth.

"...pyramids are everywhere...." But Keith, you just said that Crimerica doesn't have employees meaning that all you can look forward to is a commission check assuming you're licensed. It appears that most people still derive their income from a salary (even some from salary and commission or just commission at other companies). What makes Crimerica special is that the overwheming lion's share of money that's made goes to the fat cats which is why I call it a "pyramid-schemed" type of company. When you work at a salary-based type of job, you're guaranteed a certain level of income depending on how many hours you work and not depending on what others do - that's not a pyramid. Crimerica, on the other hand, the real money is derived from your bloated downline. Where's the downline at a McDonald's or IBM or Vonage (just to mention, the average agent of 100,000+ at Crimerica makes less than $6,000 a year which anyone at McDonalds can top). Now Keith I have a message for you which you can pass around at the interview meetings. It goes like this: "Victim of a consumer Rip-off? Want justice? Rip-off Report is a worldwide consumer reporting Website & Publication, by consumers, for consumers, to file & document complaints about companies or individuals who ripoff consumers." You have no business being here doing shilling for Crimerica as you're not helping victims. Apparently you have no life and you must find those Crimerica meetings boring so I suggest you hand out pamphlets at the next meeting giving the real truth.

"...pyramids are everywhere...." But Keith, you just said that Crimerica doesn't have employees meaning that all you can look forward to is a commission check assuming you're licensed. It appears that most people still derive their income from a salary (even some from salary and commission or just commission at other companies). What makes Crimerica special is that the overwheming lion's share of money that's made goes to the fat cats which is why I call it a "pyramid-schemed" type of company. When you work at a salary-based type of job, you're guaranteed a certain level of income depending on how many hours you work and not depending on what others do - that's not a pyramid. Crimerica, on the other hand, the real money is derived from your bloated downline. Where's the downline at a McDonald's or IBM or Vonage (just to mention, the average agent of 100,000+ at Crimerica makes less than $6,000 a year which anyone at McDonalds can top). Now Keith I have a message for you which you can pass around at the interview meetings. It goes like this: "Victim of a consumer Rip-off? Want justice? Rip-off Report is a worldwide consumer reporting Website & Publication, by consumers, for consumers, to file & document complaints about companies or individuals who ripoff consumers." You have no business being here doing shilling for Crimerica as you're not helping victims. Apparently you have no life and you must find those Crimerica meetings boring so I suggest you hand out pamphlets at the next meeting giving the real truth.

"...pyramids are everywhere...." But Keith, you just said that Crimerica doesn't have employees meaning that all you can look forward to is a commission check assuming you're licensed. It appears that most people still derive their income from a salary (even some from salary and commission or just commission at other companies). What makes Crimerica special is that the overwheming lion's share of money that's made goes to the fat cats which is why I call it a "pyramid-schemed" type of company. When you work at a salary-based type of job, you're guaranteed a certain level of income depending on how many hours you work and not depending on what others do - that's not a pyramid. Crimerica, on the other hand, the real money is derived from your bloated downline. Where's the downline at a McDonald's or IBM or Vonage (just to mention, the average agent of 100,000+ at Crimerica makes less than $6,000 a year which anyone at McDonalds can top). Now Keith I have a message for you which you can pass around at the interview meetings. It goes like this: "Victim of a consumer Rip-off? Want justice? Rip-off Report is a worldwide consumer reporting Website & Publication, by consumers, for consumers, to file & document complaints about companies or individuals who ripoff consumers." You have no business being here doing shilling for Crimerica as you're not helping victims. Apparently you have no life and you must find those Crimerica meetings boring so I suggest you hand out pamphlets at the next meeting giving the real truth.

all you so called experts that know more about a company you never investigated or looked at is a joke... Primerica does not have Employees or Salaries.. If someone at primerica says differently, contact the office RVP immediately.. the rest of you, look at your own companies. pyramids are everywhere, even in the traditional corporate environments. Unless you dont have a manager or managers, who reports to a director or directors, who reports to CEO..

I am currently an agent with Primerica so I guess you can say I'm biased, but all the same I think it's ridiculous that people get on here and bash anything that has made them mad. I can find things on the internet bashng everything from Wal-Mart to Jesus. I'm not really going to say much against or for Primerica since I am new to the company and still learning myself but when I decided to come on board I did a lot of reliable research in the library, through the Better Business Bureau, and the NASD, etc. These stuff that you see on these internet sites is just people that are mad because the business didn't work for them and they quit, Primerica probably took business from them in some way so on and so forth not reputable federally regulated sources so I advise anyone that is thinking of getting involved with the company to do some substantial research. As far as Primerica brainwashing people, I laugh at that because in the 3 months that I have been involved with the company I have gotten nothing but motivation, support, friendships, self improvement, and if they are brainwashing me to be a better person for myself and my family then I want more of it. As far as the $199 and so on and so forth, that is for the STATE in which you live to obtain a LICENSE. So if that makes you upset contact the government and see if they will work with you. Not only that but depending on what state you're in, like mine is $502 and I paid $199, Primerica paid the rest. It goes to the STATE,not PRIMERICA. So get over it.

First of all I would like to thank you Jay for this insightful information. You have saved me $199. I normally don't do the whole online message board thing but I found this one worthwile. Here's my experience with Primerica: I am a former Marine with the experience of someone twice my age in the fields of electronics and security. I got out of the Marine Corps 6 months ago and have been unable to find a suitable job. I enrolled in college and my career counselor had contacts with Primerica. Since Primerica rented rooms for conference in the school, my career counselor figured they would be willing to hire me as a security guard. He made the call and Primerica contacted me about a "job opportunity" I figured I was a shoe-in for the job of security guard so I went for an interview the next day. This was no ordinary interview. As soon as I got there, I saw that most applicants looked my age (24) or younger. Some looked young enough to be in high school and dressed in unkempt shirts and trousers. It turned out that some of them were employees. My confidence level went up immediately. They called us into the conference room and literally told us how they were affiliated wit Citigroup and the greatest financial institution in the world for about an hour. They also stated that they needed new financial consultants with no experience in the field to make from 30-50k annually to start and work their way up to owning a branch and make 50-100k. After the brainwashing stopped they made us fill out a basic application which included not the usual 2 or 3 spots for character references but 6. I figured it was going to be a hard background check since the government only requires 2 for a secret clearance. They dismissed us and required us make an appointment for an interview. This was beguiling because the reason I went there was for an interview. I came back for my interview, which, at the time, seemed like it was for a very distinguished position. The man interviewing me was knitpicking my resume like a man posessed. He instantly started the brainwashing process again. At that point I started drifting off and pretended to listen (One can only listen to somebody else's praises for so long.) I started looking objects on the wall and noticed several awards for recruiting. I thought to myself "why would a business like this get awards for recruiting". Then came the $199 I had to give them on the spot. I knew I would have to pay it but nobody said immediately. I told the "RVP" that "I will get the money later that day and bring it in tomorrow". That was yesterday. He will get his later today. With my own brand of psychological retribution. I will humiliate him and his company untill he wishes he had never called myself or anyone else. On a different note, wouldn't the complete Primerica Ripoff Report threads look good in all of the surrounding area of the Crimerica offices. Encourage fair hiring practices, spread the word! Your loved ones could be next. Good Luck to you, Jay - Sal P.S. Fight fire with fire. Send this thread to 5 acquaintances and have them do the same.

You paid $875 to a bank for an FNA??????? Who are you trying to kid? Give us the name and phone number of this bank. I'd like to double-check your story. I've sold securities in banks. Banks will go out of thier way to not offend a banking client over a securities and/or life insurance sale. I can tell you right now NO bank is going to charge someone $875 for a service every other bank in the world not only gives away, but practically begs you to use. Sheesh, if you're going to lie at least make it slightly plausible.

FYI for Jay, I'm going to try to clarify the way PFS interprets earned income and advance income, since Cody failed to reply in this thread above (his RVP probably got to him). If a person in PFS is at a 30% contract (i.e. a rep) and he writes a 50/month Life Insurance application, instead of picking up an annual check for $600.00 PFS will advance 75% of the annual premium. Therefore at 25% it works out as follows: (600.00 x .30 x.75) = $135 advance check paid to the agent. PFS holds the other 25% of the annual premium and pays it out in the 10th, 11 and 12th months in the form of an earned check. PFS also holds some other portion back as well but it's been awhile so it escapes me. There are other residuals paid out, perhaps another former agent can correct me, or an active one. I guess PFS has made their money back at this point. Therefore the agent is owed an earned check calculated as follows: (.30 x 600 x .25) = $45. In which he would get a check in the 10th, 11th and 12th months of $15 each. PFS may hold another portion of this and put it in the agent's earned account. Of course if the client changes his mind (possibly as a result of this website) the agent would receive chargeback of -$135. So the next application they write must wipe out this negative balance in order for the agent to make any money. If the agent writes another 50/month application then his chargeback balance is zero and so is his paycheck. I may not be 100% accurate but I believe I'm in the ball park. The earned checks are for policies that have been in force for at least a year. Regards,

"nobody forces you to join Primerica." People join Crimerica mostly in the expectations of making a lot of money which the odds against that happening over 1,000 to 1 (the odds are much higher when you factor in business expenses). "If you joined and failed, you can't blame PRIMERICA. Blame yourself." I still blame Crimerica for the fraud and deception perpetrated on the public under the puppet strings of the fat cats. Would you call 100,000 people who leave Crimerica each year failures? I would call them smart people who realize what Crimerica and Citigroup are corrupt companies and there's no future for them. I think it's a great idea to distribute pamphlets at the recruitment meetings explaining what you can really expect from Crimerica (e.g. the average agent makes less than $6,000 a year) along with what questions should be asked so that the newbies can understand what they should really expect.

WOW. That's all I can say. After it has been proven that Primerica is a Multi-Level-Marketing scheme and you all still believe in Primerica...WOW. This also proves to me that the ones who are still praising Primerica DID NOT read the report in its entirety! PLEASE READ "The Unvarnished Truth about Primerica..." which is in this thread! To Rich, I don't hate anything, hate is such a strong word, but I believe in and LOVE the truth. Did, I lose anything from joining Primerica, NO; because I was smart and got out when I realized that this was NOT A LEGITIMATE COMPANY. Primerica is NOT telling the truth about their business opportunity, IT'S NOT just a few offices, it's their corporate culture. They don't select the misinformed, uneducated, lower-income people because they are trying to help them out (whether as a client or recruit). They do it, because it's easier to sell them a dream. Primerica couldn't sell me that dream because I don't fit that profile. For the young man that said he made "$5,000 in his first month". Again, a dose of Primerica lies, because you don't even have your insurance licenses in your first month. If you made money without a license to do so, know YOUR actions are ILLEGAL! AGAIN, PRIMERICA IS A MLM BUSINESS--INCOME IS GENERATED THROUGH MLM ACTIVITY!

I did not join, but I have nothing against Primerica. To those who did join, I congratulate you on your success. To those who joined and did not find success, I thank you for your honesty here in this forum. I don't know why Jay decided to post all of this, but many are finding it very helpful. I can't help wondering if he hates this company or wants to help other people. It could be both. The thing to remember people is this: nobody forces you to join Primerica. You are approached and asked to join. Primerica is about making money. EVERYBODY wants to make money. I think Primerica makes money off of other people who want to make money. I mean it's clear all these people are going to join, pay the fee, and quit. Did Primerica lose anything? No. Are some people going to stay and make some money for themselves, yes, but Primerica is still going to get more $$ because of that person's sales. If you joined and failed, you can't blame PRIMERICA. Blame yourself. It's like my father used to tell me when I was 16, "you got to go out and look for a job, a job isn't going to land on your lap." Why should you not be mad at Primerica? Well, who made the decision to pay some money to join a job? I mean you really have to be a go getter to be successful in that company. If you were approached by someone who got you to join, and thought that you wouldn't have to do the same thing... then what WERE you thinking? You have to be willing to go out and talk to people on your own time. I, for one, was not willing to do that; so the choice not to join was simple. A little common sense on my part worked as well. If these guys are sooooooo good, then why do they have to go out and sell people insurance? Wouldn't people come to them instead? The same way somebody walks into State Farm Insurance or calls Geico? Also, if this company really wants to train me, why do I have to pay for it? A company that not only cares about it's own growth, but also the growth of their employees will pay their employees for training.

This is part of what gave me a weird feeling about Primerica and had me paying close attention and looking for signs that this company was not legit. It's apparent that Primerica will take in any rep as long as they can fill the only requirement that each and every Primerica office has... you must have the $199 for the IBA. Yes, it's true that it does pay for the licensing course required by the state. Yes, those cost a lot more than $199 if you try to enroll in one privately. I'll concede those points as being factual. Does it matter that 6th graders speak and write better and can formulate more intelligent thoughts than any of the current employees I've seen posting on here in my last few hours of reading? Not as long as they have $199. If you can't read, write, spell or do simple math higher than a 6th grade level, why would anyone trust you with their finances or anything. In the office I was out of, I wouldn't hire 90% of them to walk my dog, let alone advise me on my finances or life insurance needs. Unfortunately the person that approached me and the people that conducted the presentation were seemingly normal and intelligent people. Otherwise I'd have never handed over my $199. I will never forget the shock and dismay I felt in the first employee meeting. I had already been signed with the company for over a week and it just happened to take place before one of the licensing classes so I attended the meeting. I felt as if I had been in the middle of an alien invasion. All of a sudden some of the strangest people I had ever seen in my life were rah rahing and dancing around and chanting Primerica stuff. If I hadn't already invested my $199, I'd have run screaming from the building. It's sad that a lot of the people doing the recruiting bring in people that they have to know don't have the intelligence to pass the state test, which is sad since the Ohio test is relatively easy. They have one guy in the office now that has taken the test 3 times and still only got a 42 (70 or higher is required to pass) so now he has to wait 6 months to take it again. I knew within 2 minutes that he didn't have the education or intelligence to pass any kind of test. The point I'm trying to make is this... If you're going to post on here making an argument for a company you're trying to defend saying it isn't a scam or rip off or pyramid scheme (regardless of how incorrect you are) please type your response in MS Word first and use the spell check. This way it isn't as obvious that Primerica will hire anyone that has $199.

I don't know every law suit that is out there when it comes to Primerica, but I do know this. I had no job and was broke because of a custody battle. I needed something to come along to help me get through this hard time. I have only been doing this for one month now and I made a little bit under $5,000. Yes you do have to get out there and sell the services. I told six different people this month to keep thier existing life insurance, and that there was nothing else that I could really help them with. Primerica does not promise that we can help every person. Yes, you will find those dishonest people. Okay, so primerica says that there are that many people liscensed with them. There are a lot of people that fell off and are currently not doing anything. My best friend showed me his check stub for last month and it was about $9,000. Is everyone going to do this? No. Are Primerica Reps going to always have the right answers? Sometimes, I hate to say this, they will not be able to answer with the right answers. I know that when I don't know the answer, I will write it down and get back to them. I do not like to just say something to make them happy. I show no shame in telling people that I am unable to help them. I may not have gone to college to do this, but I have been trained on our products. It does not make since to go pay $875, before taxes, for a FNA just for my bank to tell me that there is nothing that they can do. I am now out 875 plus tax, and no answer on how to get ahead. Not everybody will follow the plan if we do find something. I set two people up to get out of dept from thier house in 17 years instead of the 26 that they have left. You say that we are being dishonest. Again, we do have some that are out there that are that way. I know of two people that can no longer work for the company because of their practices. Our company makes mistakes. It is a matter of fact that humans make mistakes. God said that we would make those mistakes. All big companies go through thier lawsuits. All of them do. Most of them go through a lot more than we do. I know that I make mistakes. I will make a lot of them. I will also learn from them as well.

I am in no way posting to justify Primerica but I can answer the bonus question. First you start out as a recruit. You get 2 people recruited under you and do $1000 in business (life insurance or various loans (student, home, refinance, etc) This is your first promotion and you will make 50% of the same commission one of your recruits makes. Your recruit makes a commission of $1000, you'll make $500. Your second promotion comes when one of the people you recruit gets their first promotion by doing the same thing - recruiting 2 people and doing $1000 in business. You will them make a commission of 25% of what your recruit's new recruit makes. (If I remember this correctly. I didn't ever make it to this level so I can't remember the exact figures but I know it's between 25 & 35%) Definitely a pyramid. I wish I'd come across this site before this time last year and it would have saved me the $200 I paid towards joining up. Although I did get that $200 back (well sort of - I'll explain this further down in my story). Before I start my story I want to add a note that if you have never attended any of the licensing classes (not even an hour of one class) you can get most of your initial $200 back, they charge a $40 or $60 processing fee so you'll either get $140 or $160 back. You just write a letter to the RVP (Regional Vice President) of the center where you were recruited, if you don't know their name, just address it to RVP at the address you went for your "interview" and say that you've changed your mind and never attended any classes and would like your $200 IBA fee returned to you. Make sure to give your name and return address in the letter itself and say who recruited you, etc. This way they have no way of saying "We didn't know who you were" or whatever. I do know that people do get this money back if they follow those steps. OK, now for my Primerica experience.... Like many of you, I too was contacted out of the blue for a job I didn't apply for. They not only use Monster but also local newspaper sites where you might register for job searches. That's how they got my info. So I attended their meeting and bought into the whole idea. My husband was deployed in Iraq and I had just moved to a new city. I wanted the extra income but more than that, I wanted to do something rewarding that could help others. So I gave them my $200 and the classes started right away. I did very well in the classes and studied like crazy then immediately went for my license. (Side note, not only do you pay the $200 for the classes but there's also a fee for getting fingerprinted and a fee for taking the state test, in Ohio it was $35 fingerprinting and $65 for the test) Once I passed my state licensing test both of the extra fees were reimbursed to me by Primerica. It did take a few weeks to get that reimbursement, I think 3 weeks. This part of my story isn't typical for what happens to others which leaves an even more bitter taste in my mouth regarding my Primerica experience but it's my experience so I'm sharing it. I didn't receive any training prior to becoming licensed; therefore, I wasn't eligible for the reimbursement of my initial $200. See the way it works is, before you're licensed, your training comes from giving your upline a list of all of your friends and family members and their addresses and phone numbers and info about them. You and your upline go to see them and if they decide they need one of Citibank's many insurances or loans, your upline gets the commission on those products and they reimburse your $200 out of those commissions. The idea behind it is, you train in your warm market (those that know you best) because they will be the most likely to doubt your abilities and ask questions that you haven't learned to side step yet. Each friend and family member you see should give you 10-15 names, addresses and phone numbers of people they know and these are the people that you contact once you're licensed. It was some time before I actually received any training whatsoever. I spent 15 hours a day at the office Monday thru Saturday for 3 weeks. In that time I went out with someone on my same upline team and we went to malls and stuff (to get nametag names) so that we could call those people later and say "I was in your store on such and such a day and you gave such excellent customer service that I would like to share a career opportunity with you". We would also go out and place "fishbowls" in restaurants and stuff. You know those bowls at restaurants that say "Drop in your business card for a chance to win a free meal"? This is how they get your contact info to call and try to recruit you. They figure that if you already have a job, you will have less problem coming up with the $200 they need from you up front. Most of my time was spent calling names from a sheet that my upline had already exhausted calling people that hadn't shown up for the "Opportunity Meeting" or had already blown her off, which was a complete waste of my time and efforts. But I was constantly told that if I worked the system, it would work for me. Meanwhile I'm driving 100 miles round trip just to get there everyday, I come home to clean up dog poop in the floor because I lived alone and no one was there to let them out and I was exhausted and had seen no return on my initial investment, let alone the $30,000 - $100,000 a year that the "Opportunity Meeting" dangled in front of me. So now, since I had gotten licensed before I was trained, even though there was 3 weeks in between me giving my $200 and actually getting licensed so I SHOULD have received training, my upline finally (at my complete aggravated insistence)took me out for training in my warm market. My brother has a large family (his wife and 5 children) and he was the only one working and they had no life insurance so it was a definite need and they bought a policy. I received $192 in commission. Even though I had given her a list of 10 people, we only saw 3 of the families, 2 of them were in the same house so it was actually only 2 presentations, and she didn't make sure that I got any referrals of other families from the people we saw. She basically had the attitude of "it's your family, you make sure they give them to you later" even though she had told me before we began that we go through the initial presentation and they are told that they have "homework" before we come back with their completed financial analysis and that to gather the names, etc for my referrals and that when we come back we ask for their "homework" before we read back their analysis and that the "homework" is payment in exchange for getting the free analysis. So back to the office I go, spending 15 hours a day for 2 more months. I also went on a few road trips for seminars and stuff (and paid transportation, lodging and admittance fees for) that wasn't a requirement but they kept saying "your business will grow if you attend these meetings" or "You'll be hearing from people that have succeeded and they will show you the way to success". So I do everything that I'm told to do that will "ensure my success" and I was "coachable" (this is one of their favorite words). But still the only money I have seen is the $192 commission and the reimbursement of $100 for the fingerprinting and test fees. I should note that in 1 day's time at the office, there were 3 meetings each day that we had to attend, in addition to the "Opportunity Meetings" to bring in new recruits. At these meeting, they rarely pushed going on and meeting with clients. It was always "Recruit Recruit RECRUIT!!!!!" I guess this is partially why I failed with Primerica. How can I recruit people stating they can make all of this money when I was going on 3 months and hadn't seen any myself? I had purchased Primerica literature and pamphlets to hand out at businesses (which I did do and ended up giving the remainder to a friend still with the company when I moved to Georgia. Although he's completely into Primerica so if he reads this, I doubt he'll still be my friend afterwards.) and spent a fortune on gas going back and forth and countless amounts of money setting myself up for the dangled success. The friend I mentioned earlier has been with Primerica for 2 years. No one there works harder than he does to achieve success and he's been evicted twice because he can't afford to pay his rent and bills and all he can afford to eat is ramen noodles and he's been promoted 3 times. He has made money there, don't get me wrong. He'll have a couple good months then nothing for 6 or 7 months and he never gets his finances caught up. Shortly before I gave up on the opportunity Primerica dangled before me, my brother (the only commission I had seen of $192) fell on hard times and had to cancel his policy. So all of a sudden I get a notice in the mail that says I owe Primerica $238. I had only received $192 but they penalize you in 3 different ways with fees for chargebacks. So not only did I not get reimbursed for my initial $200 (but I did make $192 leaving me only $8 and lots of time and gas money, other expenses, etc in the hole) but now they want more than they gave me in the first place. I had until this past November to pay the $238 or my appointment with Primerica would be terminated. So now it is terminated and they can try to scrape that $238 away from what the worms and bugs don't eat once I'm dead and buried because that's the only way they're getting it. I'm sure if I'd kept at it, spending 15 hours a day at the office for another 6 months or so I'd have made another $192 or so. It's completely laughable. I'm hoping the mileage and equipment and meals out add up to enough for me to get some of it back on my taxes since I was considered independently employed but who knows. Luckily, I didn't really need the money and the time away from home helped the year that my husband was deployed go by a little faster. And if my story helps one person not give Primerica $200, it will be worth everything I was out. It is my honest opinion that the only clients Primerica people see are when they are first training and then when they are training recruits. There are a few out there who genuinely see clients and try to help them out of debt, like my friend does. I don't see how you're expected to see clients when you spend 15 hours a day at the office doing recruiting and attending meetings that preach recruiting. It's really sad that you are also encouraged to push people out of your life that are negative (meaning the people that aren't saying "Primerica" or "Citibank" every other word or that question how much money you are making, since you aren't making any or the ones that haven't bought in to the Primerica way of life.) I know people from the Columbus, OH office on Busch Blvd (where I was recruited) that have stopped speaking to friends and family because they either wouldn't agree to the presentation or because they said Primerica was a ripoff/scam/pyramid scheme. They really do try to brainwash you to live and breathe Primerica. Don't get sucked in.

I was approached while working at a local movie theater by a Primerica rep who gave me the whole talk about 'hey, you're a bright young man; you're friendly; why are you working here? Here's a business card, call me." blah blah blah; so, being open-minded as I am, I called the number on the card and went in for an 'introduction to primerica', where they gave me the basic rundown with their amazingly simplified flip-book, which in fact I would have much prefferred to browse at my leisure, but instead had to sit with my 'host' as she explained it to me as if I were some sort of clueless zombie. It all sounded like a good idea on the surface, of course - helping people stabilize themselves financially, forgeing a life-long bond with families and helping them to retirement, etc. - but the plain fact of it was that I neither had the interrest nor the personality required for the usual 'salesman' role; I'm a rather easy-going guy after all, and preffer to give advice instead of cramming snake oil down people's throats. At the end of all of the talking and after the painstakingly boring flipbook, not to mention all of the intense pressure they put on me to 'show I was comitted by a cash deposit', I had heard enough to know that I had neither the spare cash, time, or patience to invest in something I neither fully believed in nor was interrested in long-term. I came to find out afterwards that six of my friends had gotten hassled by Primerica also. Seeing all of the vague descriptions and pressure they put on me, this was a slow moving bullet to dodge, indeed; and, months later, I'm glad to see that my suspisions indeed had some substance.

In this thread you wrote: When the time is right, this information will aide in one of the largest class action lawsuits in the U.S. How can I find out how to be part of this? My husband and I will never get back what we lost by getting involved with Primerica - it was way more than money. I want to help shut down this company which thrives on ruining the lives of all but a very small minority of those who get involved with them. People who have only lost the $199. "licensing fee" should thank God that is all they lost. The ones who worked hard at it but couldn't hold out by living in poverty until their business "busted wide open" lost much more - including their self-respect, and often their homes and savings.

I signed up with Primerica only to sell mortgages. I happen to have a vast background in the field and wanted a place to do them in my spare time. When I signed up I was told that I could do only mortgages and submitted my $199.00. That didn't last long. Before I knew it I was told to hand over a list of my friends (told them I didn't have any) and relatives. You know the story...just wanted to comment on the insurance sells. I took the class and passed the test...any monkey can!! I told my RVP I didn't feel I knew enough about insurance to sell it. She told me it didn't matter; just get the money and worry about the questions later. I never ran across anyone that understood what they were selling. How pathetic is that and how much more for those suckered into buying it. Last comment....mortgage training is a 15 minute film. Cough up $100.00 more and your a loan originator. Oh my gosh, how crazy is that? Trust me...no one in my former office had a clue about loans. Do you think that stopped them from selling them? No, Jay, it didn't.

Jay: The rebuttal is absolutely and positively correct. I too was a member of Primerica and everything point out in your rebuttal applies. I too am no longer in the financial services arena and have nothing to gain by debunking Primerica (aka: PFS). My objective was and is to deter as many people as possible for falling into this trap. Thanks for doing the research for many ex-Posers who know this in their heart that the deception is systematic and deliberate. It's truly inspirational. Sometimes people like me wonder if we do any good because, shills like Cody and Jim (the latest) keep popping up, they pick and choose which rebuttal they can best respond to with brainwashed dogma. But when confronted with facts they run and hide rather than debate. They NEVER acknowledge or admit that they're wrong. Your rebuttal sums up every aspect of what is wrong with PFS and why PFS corporate won't fix it and neither will CitiGroup until it collapses. I've seen too many marriages and people destroyed by this insidiousness, so I will continue to help spread the word. Regards,

Jay, I almost fell for the scam. Fortunately I googled Primerica and found this site. After they tried to recruit me they tried to get me to cancel my insurance and go with them. They also wanted me to refinance my home to pay off my debt using the smart loan. Anyway, the real reason I am here today is to say this to all the Primerica reps. My best friend's daughter works for Citi so when I was doing my research on Primerica I decided to give her a call. I wanted to get her take on it since she works for Citi and Primerica reps love to throw out "we're affiliated with Citi and they wouldn't do anything wrong". Well for all of you Primerica reps-my friend's daughter that works for Citi told me to stay as far away from Primerica as I could. Run don't walk away from this so called opportunity. This statement came from her boss who is a regional bigwig. So there you have it in a nutshell. You Primericans want to keep throwing around your affiliation with Citi because you don't know what else to say and hope that you can hide behind them. Citi employees even know to stay away from you. That is really really really sad. Jay, again thanks for all of your information. I am so thankful I found this site before I fell victim to this.

Hi, I am a prospect of primerica from vancouver bc. like all prospects, i was convinced about the wonderful opportunities (aka owning your own business, financial independence, being in control of your time etc.) that primerica promised me. i also signed up for that 199 and was so ever eager to get my license. but then again, i remember a quote my grandfather once said, "if it's too easy it's a SCAM!" so i did my research and found out a couple of things: * Primerica is a registered insurance company in bc! * Primerica is regulated by FICOM (financial institutions commision of bc), Assuris, and Insurance Council of BC. * The insurance training that primerica provides is recognized by the federal and local gov of canada and bc respectively. * A family friend is an rvp and "seems" to be earning well. from this point on primerica does sound legitimate. but then i ran into this website and to jay's report. jay does offer alot of interesting and valid points againts primerica. i wont mention them anymore because jay has done a wonderful job on that already. and so here is my final verdict: Primerica is a legal and legitimate insurance company (at least here in british comlumbia canada). Primerica offers financial products that may not be the best in the market, however, they are recognized by bc law and institutions. Furtheremore, primerica has legal agents (not financial planners) that sell primerica products. Although primerica itself is seen as a legal and legitimate company, there are few concerns about primerica's methodologies and business ethics that concerns yours truly, mart albert. Such concerns involves: * Insurance agents claiming to be financial advisors/planners, which does not correspond to the definition of Insurance agents as described by Isurance Council of bc. * Primerica's focus on their MLM campain. * Brainwashing and pushy tactics to recruit more prospects. * the actual average income of every agent (about 5000 a year) as Jay skillfully pointed out. * tax evasion tactics. * Products that primerica offers are not the most competitive in the market. there are alot more companies that offer better rates than primerica. * lack of knowledge and training of primerica's agents. with careful consideration, and based on knowledge at hand, i believe the "opportunities" that primerica offers is not best suited for me. primerica's products are legitimate and legal however their real motives, which is to concentrate on recruiting more prospects than actually providing sound financial advice, is not appealing to me, and i, therefore, decline doing business with them! mart_albert vancouver bc

The Plain, Unvarnished Truth about Primerica THE MLM OF THE FINANCIAL MARKET! This report is for everyone, Anti-Primerica and Pro-Primerica. It is time for everyone to be given the absolute truth concerning the opportunity Primerica presents. I don't care if the Primericans try to negate the findings here, because none of them has done the extensive research that I, nor the author of this report has done in order to communicate to everyone the finding on ANY multi-level-marketing opportunity! The Direct Selling Association (www.dsa.org) is an association that lists all of the MLM opportunities around the world. Most, if not all companies that are involved in an MLM and/or direct selling opportunity is registered with the D.S.A. Primerica reps (Jim to name a few) claim that all insurance companies (and financial service companies alike) recruit the same way they do; have similar meetings as they do; etc. However, upon searching DSA.ORG, I found that Primerica Financial Services is the ONLY financial services company registered with the D.S.A. (based on the search allowed to non-members). This means that Primerica is NOT focused on their product, but how they recruit people to believe in their product. Further, Primerica's registration face-sheet states that PRIMERICA IS A MLM BUSINESS! Jon M. Taylor PhD, President of the Consumer Awareness Institute put together the Top Ten Things I Learned from Ten Years Research on Network Marketing or MLM. For the Primericans (with obvious doubt) this the information presented in this report was gathered from the following: Extensive comparative research on MLM compensation plans and alternative business models to clarify differences Interviews with and feedback from thousands of MLM distributors and ex-distributors in a wide variety of MLM programs Interviews with the top experts in the field Surveys of hundreds of tax professionals where MLM is concentrated, representing thousands of MLM's tax returns Court records in MLM cases (including IRS income tax records of top distributors in one state) Household consumer surveys regarding MLM participation Surveys of leading MLM company presidents Private and public financial disclosures by MLM companies Communications with law enforcement officials at all levels Direct experience with prominent MLM companies So without further ado here's Dr. Taylor's Top Ten Things He Learned and I hope we all will take heed: **Comments directed toward Primerica were entered into the report by me. __________________ 1. MLM promoters work hard to make their programs appear innocent, but most MLM's result in loss rates exceeding 99%. Multi-level marketing (a.k.a., MLM, or network marketing) programs have great appeal to vulnerable consumers seeking to improve their lot in life. Some people are drawn to MLM's by their apparent low cost of initial participation, by the need to be part of a group dedicated to a common purpose, by the appeal of products with magical properties, and by the promise of "residual" second income or early retirement. MLM is often insidious in its apparent innocence and at the same time pernicious in its inevitable impoverishment of nearly all participants to the degree of their investments in time and money. While losses (mostly from unused product purchases) are minimal for many participants, harm to some can be great, including heavy debt, home foreclosures, career disruptions, and bankruptcy. Other harmful effects often include inordinate focus on materialism, exploitation of valued friendships, obsessive focus on MLM contributing to divorce, and damage to self-esteem. Most MLM participants are not seeking an opportunity, but are recruited by someone close to them. It is sold as a legitimate home business to earn a little extra money, to pay bills or college costs, to donate to worthy causes, etc. The reality is far different. By promoting infinite (endless chain) recruitment in finite markets, they mathematically doom the vast majority of participants to financial loss. The loss rate for recruiting MLM's (See #2 below) is approximately 99.9%; i.e., about 999 out of 1,000 participants lose money! Such odds are far worse than for no-product pyramid schemes and even worse than for many games of chance in gambling centers like Las Vegas. World wide, millions of MLM participants lose an aggregate total of tens of billions of dollars annually. It is also important to note that many recruiters for MLM companies insist that they are NOT "MLM" (or "multi-level marketing"), etc. Instead, they are doing "network marketing," "consumer direct marketing," or "direct selling." This should tell you something. Their efforts to distance themselves from MLM suggest that much of the public has figured out that they are not legitimate. To be more specific, I can recall when, over 30 years ago, MLM promoters sensed that "multi-level marketing" sounded too much like a pyramid scheme, so they loudly trumpeted their new moniker "network marketing." They claimed they were merely making use of a powerful word-of-mouth form of advertising. Sounded innocent enough! Even some regulators bought it. In its published financial statement, Nu Skin now describes itself as a "global direct selling company." And Melaleuca promoters will tell you they are not "network marketing" but "consumer direct marketing" apparently trying to further distance themselves from appearing to be a pyramid scheme. Read #2 and #10 below for the criteria I use, based on solid research, to make a clear distinction between an MLM which is merely a product-based pyramid scheme ("recruiting MLM") and a legitimate direct sales program. Keep in mind that it is generally not the names, the products, or the program's leaders that cause the problems, but the compensation plan itself. Psychologists discovered a century ago that you get the behavior you reward. _________________ 2. Almost all MLM's are recruiting MLM's, or product-based pyramid schemes. Nearly all MLM programs can be considered product-based pyramid schemes, or recruiting MLM's because they thrive on recruitment of new distributors who are the actual customers. Here the term recruiting MLM or MLM for short refers to schemes that are characterized by multi-level endless chain recruitment of distributors as their primary customers. Recruiting MLM does incorporate these Five Red Flags in their compensation plans: A.) Recruiting of participants is unlimited in an endless chain of empowered and motivated recruiters recruiting recruiters. B.) Advancement in a hierarchy of multiple levels of distributors is achieved by recruitment, rather than by appointment. C.) Ongoing purchases (products, sales tools, etc.) by distributors are encouraged in order for them to be eligible for commissions and to advance in the business ("pay to play"). (Primerica accomplishes this by selling life insurance, mutual funds, etc which is a continuous investment (premiums paid; fees; etc.)! D.) The company pays commissions and/or bonuses to more than five levels of distributors. (See Cody's comments in my other thread for this one) E.) For each sale, company payout for upline participants equals or exceeds that for the person actually selling the product, creating an inadequate incentive to sell products directly and an excessive incentive to recruit. WARNING: Where data has become available for MLM companies with these 5 red flags in their compensation plans (which is most MLM's), approximately 99.9% of participants lose money after subtracting purchases from the company. You would be wise to avoid participating regardless of how great the products, how many "respectable" people manage it or endorse it, and whether or not law enforcement has taken any action against them. Your odds of profiting from gambling in Las Vegas are far better. _________________ 3. A fair and profitable retail MLM would not look at all like the typical MLM. At least two MLM's have been created which are both fair and legitimate. The emphasis is on direct sales (to customers who are not connected with the MLM) at retail prices, as is reflected in compensation plans in which: (1) Only minimal purchases (e.g., no more than $100 per quarter) are required or incentive-ized to qualify for commissions or advancement, (2) Override commissions are paid on no more than five levels in one's upline, each of whom would receive a very small override (1-5%) from the sales of front-line participants doing the selling, and (3) Most of the commissions (over 50%) paid by the company are paid to distributors selling the product, I call such programs retail MLM's. Out of compensation plans of hundreds of MLM's I have reviewed, I have found only three programs that could qualify as retail MLM's, based on these criteria. In short, retail MLM's that might be considered legitimate are acceptable only to the degree that they are NOT like typical MLM's, as characterized by the 5 Red Flags above. (SORRY PRIMERICA, you are characterized by all five flags!) ________________ 4. Properly understood, even leading MLM's are likely to be fraudulent and technically illegal. Nearly all MLM's are inherently fraudulent endless chain recruitment schemes, promising substantial ongoing income, but leading to losses for the vast majority of participants. However, a few at the top profit hugely from product purchases of downline participants who stock up on products to play the game. As such, it could be considered theft by misrepresentation. Investors in publicly traded MLM companies would be upset if they learned that in their MLM, there are few if any bone fide customers (see # 10) and that the MLM is dependent for its success on a network of distributors, 99.9% of whom lose money. (For Primerica, this is referring to the recruit and how they don't make money off of their warm market; recruits warm market, etc.) These schemes are technically illegal in almost all jurisdictions because they violate statutes against pyramid schemes and deceptive sales practices or simple fraud. Based on available data, the vast majority of MLM's are not income opportunities, but loss opportunities instead and not legitimate businesses by any reasonable measure. ________________ 5. MLM victims seldom file complaints which contribute to the problem. In law enforcement, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. So a primary reason for lack of enforcement against fraudulent MLM's is the lack of public outcry. Even victims suffering huge losses from MLM participation seldom file complaints with law enforcement, having been conditioned to blame themselves for their failure. They often avoid filing complaints because they fear consequences from or to their upline and/or downline, which are likely to be close friends or relatives. They may also fear the consequences of reporting fraud, when they themselves were at one time defrauding others, albeit unwittingly. In fact, (with the exception of those profiting hugely at the top of their respective pyramids) those who have lost the most money are themselves most likely (out of a desire to recoup their own investment) to have defrauded others. So as in any endless chain promotional scheme they don't dare file a complaint against the company for fear they themselves may be prosecuted; i.e., self-incrimination. In short, recruiting MLM's are scams laden with deception and self-deception and ultimately fear and denial. Rare is the person who, like the child in the "Emperor's New Clothes," shouts for all to hear, "He's stark naked!" Those of us who have had personal experience with MLM, have unmasked the deceptions, and have mustered the courage to speak out, feel like that child. So with few if any complaints, there is little pressure for regulators to act against MLM's. And when law enforcement agencies fail to act against a fraudulent MLM company, prospects assume it must be legal. And the game goes on. _______________ 6. Law enforcement officials generally lack both the will and the resources to protect consumers by enforcing laws applying to MLM's. Except in rare instances, law enforcement at both federal and state levels is not likely to act on the innumerable violations of state and federal laws by MLM firms. These officials are often overwhelmed with cases, few of them as complicated as MLM. Agency officials often work long, hard hours; but they simply lack the resources to stand up to these schemes which one important law enforcement official told me would take 20 times the resources as the typical case brought before them. Also, few regulators understand the fraud inherent in complex MLM compensation plans that are obfuscated by their complexity. MLM companies merely put on the faade of complying with the Amway rules, which were initiated by the FTC to assure that some legitimate selling to non-distributors is taking place. These rules are typically ignored, since it would be impractical to enforce them. So law enforcement is not likely to act without a significant number of complaints filed by consumers which seldom happens, especially with established MLM's. State legislation is often weak and inconsistent over jurisdictions; since MLM's rapidly transcend jurisdictional boundaries; they quickly become unmanageable by local authorities. And the legislatures of some states are being lobbied by the Direct Selling Association (DSA, which has become an arm of the MLM industry) to pass "improved" legislation against pyramid schemes, but that would exempt product-based pyramid schemes from prosecution. And such legislation has been accepted in several states by unwitting legislators. In these states, the most damaging pyramid schemes of all (those with the highest loss rates) are exempt from prosecution, and the least damaging carry criminal penalties. Federal agencies, particularly the FTC, find other classes of consumer abuse much easier to deal with and more publicly acceptable to prosecute. There are the occasional exceptions. A handful of MLM's (product-based pyramid schemes) have been stopped by authorities, but this is but a drop in the bucket, compared to the hundreds of MLM's which defraud new recruits every day with new ones cropping up regularly to replace those which collapse. Unfortunately, many of the larger MLM's are compensating for a decline in market acceptance in the U.S. by finding populations in Asia and other parts of the world who are highly vulnerable to their recruitment. In this respect, "recruiting MLM's" evolve into Ponzi schemes in order to survive and grow recruiting in new countries or with new divisions to repay earlier investors in its "opportunity." Officials from foreign countries are no savvier on this issue than are U.S. officials, and in fact U.S. trade representatives have yielded to lobbying pressure from the DSA (see below) to accept MLM (in the guise of "direct selling") overseas. As a result, millions of unsuspecting victims overseas are suffering billions of dollars in losses from these US-based companies. This type of plundering of countries whose good will we have been trying to cultivate is bound to have adverse consequences to our foreign relations down the road. There is one bright spot in all of this, which helps to offset the inaction of law enforcement. Many participants and those close to them have seen enough of the harmful consequences of MLM participation that they have become immune to recruitment appeals. And some victims have developed web sites (ripoffreport.com) to warn others of the costs and harm done by these programs. ________________ 7. MLM promoters are very clever at rationalizing MLM fraud, even to themselves. I have seen MLM company officials come up with very clever rationalizations for what they do. Those with whom I have communicated have shown extreme denial of the harm done by their MLM's. They interact primarily with those at the top of recruiting pyramids and are oblivious to the extent of the damages to those lower in the hierarchy, the vast majority of who lose money and drop out, never to be heard from. MLM promoters misrepresent because they MUST in order to survive and grow. Deception, including self-deception, becomes a way of life. If the truth were known about their abysmal odds of success, these programs would collapse like a house of cards. Who would join up if they knew that only one out of 1,000 participants earned a profit after subtracting expenses, including sales helps and purchases from the company to qualify for commissions and for advancement in the scheme? In fact, the deceptions in MLM provide fodder for much humor and satire on MLM. Informed law enforcement officials and concerned consumer activists have observed religious overtones and even cult-like behavior of the "true believers" in MLM's or product-based pyramid schemes. For example: Cult expert, founder of Resource Center for Freedom of Mind, counselor and author Steven Hassan looks at MLM/network marketing, such as Amway/Quixtar, as exhibiting many of the destructive traits of a cult. http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/amway/index.htm. Also, check out Amway world wide dream builders and 'the things they will say' to profit from your dreams. Potential Amway recruits will be inoculated against their program after reading the things they will say. http://www.angelfire.com/or/amwaydreamers/index.html (I DON'T RECALL GETTING THIS FEEL FROM THE PRIMERICA MEETINGS I ATTENDED, BUT OTHERS HAVE) I have written on the impact of MLM on members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who seem particularly vulnerable to these schemes, due at least in part to very trusting relationships cultivated in their ranks. My book The Network Marketing Game: Gospel Perspectives in Multi-level Marketing addresses the ethics of MLM for Latter-day Saints, and in fact for all persons with a Judeo-Christian code of ethics. ___________________ 8. The villain in MLM abuse is the compensation & recruitment system or system fraud. It would be difficult to point to individuals as villains. The primary cause of MLM fraud is neither the leaders nor the products they sell, but a compensation and recruitment system which rewards multi-level endless chain recruitment of distributors as primary customers. Thus, it could be termed system fraud. The primary beneficiaries are the participants at the top of their respective pyramids and their sponsoring MLM companies. MLM is the perfect con game. Many of the very persons who are out promoting the scheme are themselves victims eventually running out of money and dropping out. They just absorb their losses often substantial. And since they seldom complain to authorities, the game goes on! ________________ 9. Though most are scams, MLM's can display remarkable endurance often expanding Ponzi-style to foreign countries to keep the chain of recruitment going. One would think that if almost all MLM's were merely disguised pyramid schemes or endless chain recruitment schemes, they would collapse on their own. However, recruiting MLM's are the most durable of all types of pyramid schemes. Complex compensation plans obfuscate the fraud so that only the most sophisticated of analysts can see through the maze of deceptions, making it possible for the programs to defraud on a massive scale without being recognized or stopped by authorities. (For more on MLM durability, see the aforementioned "5 Red Flags" report. As explained in #6 above, when recruitment in a given area dries up, top recruiters in an MLM move on to other areas. Recruits in each area are told that the real opportunity lies in ___ (the next fresh market, often a 2nd world country). When the market world-wide peaks and begins to slide, the company opens a new product division and begins the same cycle all over again, as Amway has done with Quixtar and Nu Skin with its Big Planet and Pharmanex divisions (and currently what Primerica has done in Canada, Guam, Spain, and the UK). Thus, durable MLMs evolve into Ponzi schemes, with earlier investors profiting from the investments of new recruits. As endless chain recruitment schemes, powerful incentives are in place to continue MLM recruiting even when the opportunity is proven unprofitable. And since so few complaints are received by enforcement agencies, this class of fraud continues virtually unchecked. ________________ 10. MLM compensation plans reward recruiting over direct selling, and are therefore not legitimate direct sales programs, as they claim to be. The Direct Selling Association (DSA), which is now dominated by the MLM industry and therefore promotes MLM's agenda, defines direct selling as the sale of a consumer product or service, person-to-person, away from a fixed retail location. On the bases of this definition, MLM's claim to be direct sales programs! But the definition fails to specify what legitimate direct sales programs are NOT. Legitimate direct sales programs do not (By the way, Primerica does ALL THESE THINGS) (A) Recruit participants in an endless chain of recruiters recruiting recruiters, (B) Specify advancement by recruitment, rather than by appointment, (C) Require or use powerful incentives for ongoing purchases in order to qualify for commissions and to advance in the scheme, (Can we say, trip to Hawaii) (D) Pay overrides on more levels of managers than are functionally justified (most corporations have found the entire country can be covered in four levels of sales managers), and (E) Offer excessive incentive to recruit, combined with inadequate incentive to sell products to bona fide customers. In nearly all MLM's, there are few legitimate customers outside the network of distributors. (Or should we say your warm market) As an example of how MLM's try to position themselves as direct sellers, in its published financial statement, Nu Skin now describes itself as a "global direct selling company." However, anyone who understands the above and reads with an open mind my "REPORT OF VIOLATIONS" of the FTC's Order for Nu Skin to stop misrepresenting the earnings of its distributors will see that Nu Skin is no more a direct selling company than a pig is a horse. _________________ Summary the plain, unvarnished truth! A recruiting MLM is a multi-level (or network) marketing system that depends upon recruitment of new distributors to replace a continuously collapsing base of new participants in a pyramid of recruits. As such, it constitutes an endless chain scheme of marketing by recruitment of distributors as primary customers. It is pseudo-business with no significant customer base and is dependent on a large network of distributors, approximately 99% of whom lose money from investing in products and services (including success tools) offered by the sponsoring MLM Company. The extremely high loss rate and aggregate losses make recruiting MLM's, or product-based pyramid schemes, the worst of all types of pyramid schemes. Thus, recruiting MLM's are inherently flawed systems that promise ongoing residual income, but deliver very little except financial loss at the least, and loss of treasured relationships and values of honesty and integrity at the worst. They maintain themselves by continuous recruitment of new recruits, as investing participants give up or run out of funds and leave the system, seldom understanding what happened to them even blaming themselves for their failure. Victims of MLM programs are seldom aware enough to file complaints with authorities, so law enforcement rarely takes action. So to be successful in a recruiting MLM, one must first be deceived, then maintain a high level of self-deception, and finally go about deceiving others. Some would label this "theft by deception," except that few of those doing the deceiving are aware that they are deceiving and defrauding those they are recruiting. They may even put on a display of being "successful" by buying expensive cars and homes and inviting others to be like them. I am confident that any qualified person willing to examine the evidence with an open mind will agree with the above conclusions. For the serious researcher, reports expanding on this research are available from the author. Ten years have gone into these reports. As a result of reading this information, you may be spared losses of hundreds or even thousands of dollars. Please show your appreciation by sharing this information with five people. Then ask each of them to share it with five more, and each of them with five more, etc. You can thereby participate in an endless chain of truth-telling. 2004 Jon M. Taylor, PhD NOTE: Permission is given to copy this article if reproduced in full, including credits. Please refer to www.mlm-thetruth.com & www.skepdic.com (respectively) for a list of all the appropriate credits. _________________ My Conclusion Broad & Curvy vs. Straight & Narrow My title makes reference to a commonly used proverb. Primerica reps (and the individuals considering Primerica), you have two choices on how to approach this information. One, you can continue to go down the broad and curvy road that will eventually lead to destruction. Primerica is not a legitimate opportunity. You may even be making some money, but that won't last! Two, you can open your eyes and make that right turn down the straight and narrow road. That road leads you back to reality. You all are worth more than what Primerica, or any MLM scheme can offer you. It has been proven, do not negate those FACTS! Save yourself from the heartache of future lawsuits against you, because it's coming! Example: Kenneth Titus and Redwood Trust. This MLM Company stole its name from an organization in California and told people that they could pay off your mortgage; however, you had to send them a $3,000-5,000 dollar registration fee. (See http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/nyn/VW/Cases/RedwoodTrust/Civil_Forfeiture_Complaint.htm) The only difference with Primerica is they use the guise of getting state licensed which makes you question the doubt of their legitimacy. Simply, they picked a product in which you have to be licensed in order to DISTRIBUTE! If you look on their website (primerica.com), they have a host of disclosures, disclaimers, etc. that help them to avoid lawsuits. Still don't believe, well let's breakdown the theory of Primerica recruiting. First off, IT IS considered a pyramid, because it starts with you, the Primerica rep, and then you recruit people, who then recruit people, who then recruit people, etc. Therefore, you are theoretically the one at the top of your pyramid. Consider this: (considering every recruit will recruit 10 people) If recruiting were started by a Primerica rep at the top, recruiting just 10 people beneath him; those ten would have 100 beneath them; those hundred would have 1,000 beneath them, etc.; the pyramid would involve everyone on earth in just ten layers of people with one Primerica con on top. The human pyramid would be about 60 feet high (based on a person being 6ft tall) and the bottom layer would have more than 4.5 billion people! This is the diagram in numbers: 1 10 100 1,000 10,000 100,000 1,000,000 10,000,000 100,000,000 1,000,000,000 10,000,000,000 Thus, in very short order, 10 recruiting 10 and so on would reach 10 billion, well in excess of the earth's population [which is 6,487,910,047 as of 17:19 GMT (EST +5) Dec. 28, 2005]. If the entire population of earth were only 5 billion and we all got involved in a pyramid scheme, the bottom layer would consist of about 90 percent of the planet, i.e., about 4.5 billion people. Thus, for 500 million people to be WINNERS, 4.5 billion must be LOSERS. Guess who sits at the top of the Primerica Pyramid, CITIGROUP! When Primerica reps make a sale, the business is referred back to CITIGROUP and the financial services they provide through a network of subsidiaries! NOTE: Not adjusted for the fact that 75-85% of the world population is literate and the individuals in the World under the US legal working age. This information has to be compelling, Primerica reps think different, they are REALLY BRAIN-DEAD! This information dissects the legitimacy of all MLM businesses. Primerica is registered as a MLM; person-to-person business; with compensation being generated through recruiting practice, therefore, THE REPORT APPLIES! (See www.dsa.org) THERE IS HOPE This hope is given to us through ripoffreport.com. Keep submitting your comments against Primerica. Ripoffreport has enables us to compile a wealth of testimony, evidence, and research against Primerica. When the time is right, this information will aide in one of the largest class action lawsuits in the U.S. I'm sure there is a rebuttal out there somewhere, Jim, I'm waiting for you. But before anyone refutes, know this: YES, I HAVE had a personal experience with Primerica YES, MY PURPOSE is to protect individuals that have inaccurate information about Primerica NO, I DO NOT work in an industry that competes with Primerica products NO, I WILL NOT stand by and watch another person get misguided by Primerica and its affiliates

Mr. Jim: INTRO: "READING IS FUNDAMENTAL Take your time and read, please! If you can't pronounce words use your vowels. Also, if you don't know what something means, grab a dictionary, encyclopedia, or go on the internet! Now that I got that out of the way... Lucky for you, I was on vacation when you submitted this garbage on my thread. I bet you're walking around now like you have an "S" on your chest (you probably won't catch that joke) thinking that you've refuted me, unfortunately, you haven't! I never thought I would go here, but your rebuttal was one of the dumbest, poorly written rebuttals I have ever read on here. What subject do you teach? At least Cody tried (to no avail)! Next time, don't write with so much anger. But since you did, let's see what I can find in your poor writing examples... First off, I see that you not a very good reader (please reread the intro). You quote me as saying that Primerica reps will always have only 5% of their sales force making over 50K; then you turn that number into 150K. How ridiculous are you for trying to pull that wool over our eyes. The fact is, in the company I am currently employed in 30-35% of the 18,000+ employees at my job make over 50K. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, YOU IDIOT! (I really didn't want to go there, but you made me, seriously) Hey Jim, COMPANY GROWTH is what allows more employees to move up the corporate ladder, not just retirement, termination, resignation, (which you didn't mention) sickness, etc. That's the real world, Primerica is the only company that needs a pep rally to continue to sell their false promises to their reps and it looks like you went all in. I bet you were all in when you heard the Cody story about the population being frozen in time; assuming 350 million people in the world, we would need 1,000 years to recruit them' garbage. THE TRUTH, Primerica is not growing as consistently as any other financial services company. They had 108K reps in 1992 (do your homework, please) and they have AROUND 108K OR LESS, NOW! Jim, do you have a backbone, please stop coming on here selling that s__t your "RVP" told you. We're not walking down the yellow brick road' looking for brains; therefore, we are not easily influenced! May I ask; why did you go into this part-time' employment spiel? The biggest problem with your analogy is that you fail to realize that the $5,800 is not the average for all agents that don't earn the big bucks that is the average for Primerica's entire payout to ALL OF ITS AGENTS! Obviously you didn't read my thread thoroughly, nor did you research Primerica's website thoroughly. Just because you're you, I will repeat myself. In 2004, Primerica paid out 573 million dollars to a workforce of 100-108k reps! Look on the d**n website please, IT IS PRIMERICA'S WEBSITE, you should have already done this! Can YOU do basic arithmetic, because that averages out to $5,730-5,305.56 dollars a year per person (without adjusted for differences in income, expenses for being an independent contractor, and taxes)! Mr. Jim, how are you part time when you are required (in your first 90 days and beyond) to go to 2 Money and Business Seminars per week (a Weekday and a Saturday); constantly recruit (you're an independent contractor, this is considered work); give your up line your family's business; make sure your down line is recruiting and your getting their business; etc. That's a lot of stuff, Jim. Oh yeah, believe me, you were not making even $1,100 per month, remember Jim, your superiors are OVERRIDING YOUR INCOME! How dare you insinuate that I don't know what an override means! Does Primerica know what District Manager, Regional Vice President, mean; they use those titles quite loosely! Aside: I thought this comment was funny, Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote. Jim, how am I stopping people with my stupid article? If they chose to consider the facts, isn't that their decision? I mean they could take your approach, although most intelligent people wouldn't. My article could not have been that stupid, you seem to think it's stopping Primerica from getting recruits! You wrote this: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up. You make this statement because of what? No one without access to Primerica's intranet would see your company's income posts, right Jim. Or maybe you didn't realize that. How is it stupid to have to validate a claim you make. It's stupid to you, because you can't validate any claim and you know deep down in your heart that Primerica has failed you. What's funny is, you tell me to grow up! I'll grow up when Primerica reps grow up; I'll grow up when Primerica reps take a real finance and investing class; I'll even grow up when Primerica focuses more on customizing their financial products instead of on recruiting. Grow up you say? Jim it looks like you are the still surviving off of the baby bottles' of financial planning. Like babies reaction to sounds and colors, you are still amused by the glitz and glamour of the Primerica lights flashing in your eyes! Going to a Primerica party DOES NOT put money in your pocket. They do that Jim to attempt to impress upon you the illusion that they live the good life; it's all smoke and mirrors. In that way, you feel like you are rubbing elbows with the big wigs', when, in fact, these people are no different from you. Aside: In what way am I miserable? Are you just angry because I exposed the fact about Primerica? You can be angry, but dude, I'm not the one that's miserable in this thread! You wrote, Take the insurance industry. Since over 80% of the life policies are cash value policies, that gives me a big advantage because they are easy to show clients how little coverage they can afford and what little cash build up they get for their money. Easy to replace with "buy term and invest the difference." Huge competitive edge. This is personally for you Jim. -Term Insurance (if you were taught different, then I understand why you are like you are)- Coverage - In its simplest form, term insurance is insurance that last one year. The variant that gives term its value (and is commonly purchased) is annual renewable term. The period is normally for 10 to 20 years, but it often sold in increments of 10, 15, 20, & 30 years, respectively. In this form, the premium paid each year is the same, and is the cost of each year's annual renewable term rates averaged over the term, with a time value of money adjustment made by the insurer. Thus the longer the term the premium is level for, the higher the premium, because the older, more expensive to insure years are averaged into the premium. **Still with me?!** Payout - Insurance industry studies show that the likelihood of a payout to an individual with term life insurance is 1%. If you don't believe me, then study up on your OWN INDUSTRY genius! THAT, my friend, is why term insurance is so cheap. The low payout percentage is a combo there being a low probability (in aggregate) of a healthy person dying within a short period of time, combined with some term premiums rising every year so that the insured finally does not continue the policy as they get older (and more likely to die). Due to this low probability of payout, THIS IS WHY SMART PEOPLE CONVERT TO PERMANENT LIFE INSURANCE! Not because people are unaware of term life insurance Mr. Jim. **You do know that payout percentages are determined by statistical probability tests right?!** The main benefit of term life insurance is to cover an individual who can't afford permanent life insurance. This term coverage should only last until a person can afford permanent life insurance. Remember Mr. Jim, you get tax deferred growth of cash value and greater likelihood of receiving a death benefit, which is also usually tax free. I hope Primerica is giving their clients conversion privileges, because if not, they are going to be screwed in the long run. Because in the long run (which is what life insurance is for anyway) permanent life insurance is cheaper than term because the premiums are fixed in most cases and you accumulate the cash value. If you were investor savvy you could still use permanent life insurance like term by borrowing against the value and investing the non-taxed proceeds (since it is a loan)making a profit off of the spread in interest! Of course that depends on the interest you're paying and the interest you're getting. There are many variables to life insurance, in general, especially with term insurance and you need to educate your clients on the foundation of term insurance which I have spelled out for you. That's, again, the life of a real financial consultant. By the way, Primerica may hold the same licenses as financial consultants (because everybody in the industry has to), but the big difference is that the individuals who hold the title financial consultant, advisor, planner have CFP, CFM, CMA, CPA, MBA, or JD, etc. certifications and majority of Primerica reps don't. The difference in the real world of financial planning is that the individuals just entering the industry are trained by professionals with those credentials and experience to back it up. Mr. Jim, Primerica does not have the ability to step to that level and NEVER WILL! With your 15,000 to 150,000 policy example (which is erroneous and sounds like your RVP thought of that analogy), I'd take the $150,000 from another insurance company and convert it to permanent life insurance after 25 years with no increase in premium. But, I receive $50K life insurance just for working for my company and have brought much more for a premium that I know Primerica can't beat. FOR THE LAST TIME, PLEASE ALL PRIMERICA GENIUSES READ UP ON THE EFFICIENT MARKETS HYPOTHESIS AND THEORY! Jim, the stock market is just a COMPONENT of the theory, but its underlying principle is INVESTOR BEHAVIOR! Please stop making uneducated judgments, because it makes you look retarded! You're a teacher; I thought you would be smarter than that. I'm not going any further with this because you are all brawn AND NO BRAINS (which is surprising for a teacher).

Jim, you said "Your assumption is that because only 5% earn an average of $150,000 (the RVP's)..." Jay provided statics from Primerica's pamphlet that indicates only 5% of people from Primerica earns over $50,000 a year. How did you come up with the $150,000 figure? You said "Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote." There some people with a kind heart who works at Primerica. I feel sorry for them to have rude hotheads like you who are representing the same company that they work for. No wonder Primerica forbids its agent to post on the Internet. People like you are making the reputation of the company worse than it already is. You said: "Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up." What sense would it make to refer to the leaderboard when neither you nor over 99% of people who works for Primerica make one money that kind of money? Not suprising at all that the only way you can you respond to Jay's question is to avoid it and then change the topic by attacking him. You keep making it sound like you're going to make it big in Primerica. But when we ask you to show proof, you too coward to provide it. How can anyone believe your claim? We're not talking about how much the top earners make. We're talking about how much you make, which is why it is pointless to refer to the leaderboard. Also, correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I understand, the earnings of the leaders posted on the website only list the gross income. It doesn't deduct any of the business expenses. Simply looking at those figures is misleading.

Jim, you said "Your assumption is that because only 5% earn an average of $150,000 (the RVP's)..." Jay provided statics from Primerica's pamphlet that indicates only 5% of people from Primerica earns over $50,000 a year. How did you come up with the $150,000 figure? You said "Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote." There some people with a kind heart who works at Primerica. I feel sorry for them to have rude hotheads like you who are representing the same company that they work for. No wonder Primerica forbids its agent to post on the Internet. People like you are making the reputation of the company worse than it already is. You said: "Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up." What sense would it make to refer to the leaderboard when neither you nor over 99% of people who works for Primerica make one money that kind of money? Not suprising at all that the only way you can you respond to Jay's question is to avoid it and then change the topic by attacking him. You keep making it sound like you're going to make it big in Primerica. But when we ask you to show proof, you too coward to provide it. How can anyone believe your claim? We're not talking about how much the top earners make. We're talking about how much you make, which is why it is pointless to refer to the leaderboard. Also, correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I understand, the earnings of the leaders posted on the website only list the gross income. It doesn't deduct any of the business expenses. Simply looking at those figures is misleading.

Jim, you said "Your assumption is that because only 5% earn an average of $150,000 (the RVP's)..." Jay provided statics from Primerica's pamphlet that indicates only 5% of people from Primerica earns over $50,000 a year. How did you come up with the $150,000 figure? You said "Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote." There some people with a kind heart who works at Primerica. I feel sorry for them to have rude hotheads like you who are representing the same company that they work for. No wonder Primerica forbids its agent to post on the Internet. People like you are making the reputation of the company worse than it already is. You said: "Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up." What sense would it make to refer to the leaderboard when neither you nor over 99% of people who works for Primerica make one money that kind of money? Not suprising at all that the only way you can you respond to Jay's question is to avoid it and then change the topic by attacking him. You keep making it sound like you're going to make it big in Primerica. But when we ask you to show proof, you too coward to provide it. How can anyone believe your claim? We're not talking about how much the top earners make. We're talking about how much you make, which is why it is pointless to refer to the leaderboard. Also, correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I understand, the earnings of the leaders posted on the website only list the gross income. It doesn't deduct any of the business expenses. Simply looking at those figures is misleading.

Jim, you said "Your assumption is that because only 5% earn an average of $150,000 (the RVP's)..." Jay provided statics from Primerica's pamphlet that indicates only 5% of people from Primerica earns over $50,000 a year. How did you come up with the $150,000 figure? You said "Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote." There some people with a kind heart who works at Primerica. I feel sorry for them to have rude hotheads like you who are representing the same company that they work for. No wonder Primerica forbids its agent to post on the Internet. People like you are making the reputation of the company worse than it already is. You said: "Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up." What sense would it make to refer to the leaderboard when neither you nor over 99% of people who works for Primerica make one money that kind of money? Not suprising at all that the only way you can you respond to Jay's question is to avoid it and then change the topic by attacking him. You keep making it sound like you're going to make it big in Primerica. But when we ask you to show proof, you too coward to provide it. How can anyone believe your claim? We're not talking about how much the top earners make. We're talking about how much you make, which is why it is pointless to refer to the leaderboard. Also, correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I understand, the earnings of the leaders posted on the website only list the gross income. It doesn't deduct any of the business expenses. Simply looking at those figures is misleading.

"Someone agreed with you and shows that the average income of all agents that don't earn the big bucks is about $5,800." So Jimmy boy let me pose your question back to you. How many companies are around where their employees are averaging $5,800 annually? (I thought the number was closer to $5,300?). As far as part time goes, in my state employees working 20 hours a week make minimally (minimum wage) $6,396 a year which next year goes up to $7,346. Let's throw in that you have to start off paying $199 to get a license plus more money towards other licenses plus gas money and wear and tear on the car plus other types of business expenses. Now Jimmy boy, you old shiller you, who really works part time at Crimerica? The idea is you have to bust your butt to make the big money which means over 40 hours a week (including rah-rah meetings) which is a big wear and tear on the agents (any wonder why the turnover is over 100,000 agents a year?). So Jimmy boy you're offering to document what you say with a copy of your tax return (should I hold my breath?) As part of the documentation, what is your title? how big is your downline? and how long have you been at Crimerica? For those who think I'm being nasty with Jimmy boy, I have every right to be. I quote again: "Victim of a consumer Rip-off? Want justice? Rip-off Report is a worldwide consumer reporting Website & Publication, by consumers, for consumers, to file & document complaints about companies or individuals who ripoff consumers." and ask: how are YOU helping out the victims of Crimerica Jimmy boy?

accuser - Using this hypothesis, this would suggest that Primerica will always have 5% of the reps in their company making over $50-100K and the remainder making significantly less. Acknowledging insider trading is illegal, this would further suggest that the only way to excel to the top 5%, you have to be lucky or do something illegal and/or unethical. Response - I find most of your test amusing. But, this has no resemblence of reality. Your assumption is that because only 5% earn an average of $150,000 (the RVP's) that somehow our company is worse than any other company. Here is a question for you. How many or what percent in your business or company earn $50,000 a year? $100,000 a year. In your world, only a few at the top have the possibility to earn that kind of money since for others to move up the corporate pyramid, people have to get fired, get sick or die for room to open up. And, only a few will ever move up, far less than the 5% Primerica produces. To also bring you into reality, the company is clear to put out recruiting materials that clearly remind persons joining that there are no guarantees to sucess in Primerica. Success is up to how a recruit responds to the prescribed mode of development. Most, don't follow this. That is not Primerica's fault. Also, the company expressly desires new persons to start part-time and not leave their full-time jobs until a person can live on their Primerica income. Someone agreed with you and shows that the average income of all agents that don't earn the big bucks is about $5,800. Now, if I work 4 hours a day for 5 days a week part-time at a conveinence store at $9hr., the monthly part-time income would be $9,360 a year. However, there is no possibility to advance or ever have an opportunity to earn $50,000 or more a year. Also, most part-time persons that write business go on appointments less than once a week work less than 3 hours a week. When I worked part-time with them, I worked once or twice a week and brought in about $1,100 a month part-time. Therefore, I still got to see my family and earn enought to get by with my full-time teaching job. Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote. Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up. Although I'm not there yet, my uplines are. And, if I follow their lead and do what they did, I'll be there too! You really out to go to a party thrown by our leaders and you will know what real freedom is. Stop being so miserable! To become financially free, a person must recruit a large down line to find great sales people and leaders. You are aware that the insurance industries numbers suggest that 85% quit in only a couple of years! It's not an easy business period. It is quite competitive and thus, one has to have a thick skin to progress forwards. Most don't! But, all should have the right to find out what they are made of. Take the insurance industry. Since over 80% of the life policies are cash value policies, that gives me a big advantage because they are easy to show clients how little coverage they can afford and what little cash build up they get for their money. Easy to replace with "buy term and invest the difference." Huge competitive edge. accusation - List why you feel an individual with no educational or career background in finance can give an expert, informed, subjective financial analysis and why you feel an individual who HAS that background and experience, can not? Response - Take an insurance agent for instance that goes along with the industry average with respect to selling cash value policies. When I can triple a clients coverage and help them have 5 times the money at retirement, you can take the so called "expert" and do you know what with them. The fact is, these so called experts really only have one year's experience and have done this over and over "giving the public a steady line of sacred bull." - Ralph Nader. Let me ask you a question. If you had the choice of being covered for $15,000 or $150,000 with the same premium, which policy would you choose to cover your two young children, one on the way and your precious wife if you die??? I chose the $150,000 when Primerica showed me how I was drastically underinsured by a ripoff agent peddling cash value policies. Also, your professionals hold the same licenses Primerica agents hold. They passed the same test and took the same pre-licensing classes. I'm not concerned with what you think an expert is. In my book, it's a person that gives me $150,000 coverage instead of $15,000 for the same price. By the way, trying to equate what the stock market does and why with how people respond to a business opportunity is really unintelligent. There is no correlation between the two. One has to do with market fluctuations and the other has to do with personalities. Get real! Accusation - Can you break down the promotion process, in detail? Be sure to explain how a representative can receive two 48% raises in their first 60-90 days using the accelerated management program'. Does this raise consist of your up-line' receiving a lower commission in addition to your recruits, or does this suggest that the raise comes solely from your recruits which means they (your recruits) are making only 4%? Response - Deceptive question. You first have to identify the product since each have different percentages for commissions. But, you should also note that a promotion can only be given after a person is appointed to Primerica Life. Thus, if it takes 90 days to get the license, he can not receive any commissions from life sales. But, if the recruit doesn't accomplish the 3 recruits, he would be at a "rep" level receiving 25% commission on annual paid premium amounts. If the recruit recruits 3 persons, the RVP can promote them to a "District" leader which is paid 50% on the life premiums. That's a 100% increase in "potential" commission when they sell a policy. 2(48%) = 96% is wrong. I'm sorry you can't understand simple math. What your 4% annalogy is makes no sense. We earn money four ways. Direct commissions from our own personal sales, overrides from agent sales(just like real estate agents earn their splits or overrides when they sell houses or loans), residual income from the sales of securities and bonuses for the RVP's. DIRECTIONS Please provide a complete, concise, subjective analysis of the material. You will be graded for your understanding of the subject matter; content; and supporting documentation. Failure to do so will result in an F' and further proof on why Primerica's system is flawed. What a stupid set of directions. You in no way can judge me for my knowledge since you can't even understand what an override is. Not only that, everything you wrote only shows you know nothing about MLM, real estate, financial serives or corporate business structures. You receive an F for your lack of knowledge in all these areas.

accuser - Using this hypothesis, this would suggest that Primerica will always have 5% of the reps in their company making over $50-100K and the remainder making significantly less. Acknowledging insider trading is illegal, this would further suggest that the only way to excel to the top 5%, you have to be lucky or do something illegal and/or unethical. Response - I find most of your test amusing. But, this has no resemblence of reality. Your assumption is that because only 5% earn an average of $150,000 (the RVP's) that somehow our company is worse than any other company. Here is a question for you. How many or what percent in your business or company earn $50,000 a year? $100,000 a year. In your world, only a few at the top have the possibility to earn that kind of money since for others to move up the corporate pyramid, people have to get fired, get sick or die for room to open up. And, only a few will ever move up, far less than the 5% Primerica produces. To also bring you into reality, the company is clear to put out recruiting materials that clearly remind persons joining that there are no guarantees to sucess in Primerica. Success is up to how a recruit responds to the prescribed mode of development. Most, don't follow this. That is not Primerica's fault. Also, the company expressly desires new persons to start part-time and not leave their full-time jobs until a person can live on their Primerica income. Someone agreed with you and shows that the average income of all agents that don't earn the big bucks is about $5,800. Now, if I work 4 hours a day for 5 days a week part-time at a conveinence store at $9hr., the monthly part-time income would be $9,360 a year. However, there is no possibility to advance or ever have an opportunity to earn $50,000 or more a year. Also, most part-time persons that write business go on appointments less than once a week work less than 3 hours a week. When I worked part-time with them, I worked once or twice a week and brought in about $1,100 a month part-time. Therefore, I still got to see my family and earn enought to get by with my full-time teaching job. Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote. Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up. Although I'm not there yet, my uplines are. And, if I follow their lead and do what they did, I'll be there too! You really out to go to a party thrown by our leaders and you will know what real freedom is. Stop being so miserable! To become financially free, a person must recruit a large down line to find great sales people and leaders. You are aware that the insurance industries numbers suggest that 85% quit in only a couple of years! It's not an easy business period. It is quite competitive and thus, one has to have a thick skin to progress forwards. Most don't! But, all should have the right to find out what they are made of. Take the insurance industry. Since over 80% of the life policies are cash value policies, that gives me a big advantage because they are easy to show clients how little coverage they can afford and what little cash build up they get for their money. Easy to replace with "buy term and invest the difference." Huge competitive edge. accusation - List why you feel an individual with no educational or career background in finance can give an expert, informed, subjective financial analysis and why you feel an individual who HAS that background and experience, can not? Response - Take an insurance agent for instance that goes along with the industry average with respect to selling cash value policies. When I can triple a clients coverage and help them have 5 times the money at retirement, you can take the so called "expert" and do you know what with them. The fact is, these so called experts really only have one year's experience and have done this over and over "giving the public a steady line of sacred bull." - Ralph Nader. Let me ask you a question. If you had the choice of being covered for $15,000 or $150,000 with the same premium, which policy would you choose to cover your two young children, one on the way and your precious wife if you die??? I chose the $150,000 when Primerica showed me how I was drastically underinsured by a ripoff agent peddling cash value policies. Also, your professionals hold the same licenses Primerica agents hold. They passed the same test and took the same pre-licensing classes. I'm not concerned with what you think an expert is. In my book, it's a person that gives me $150,000 coverage instead of $15,000 for the same price. By the way, trying to equate what the stock market does and why with how people respond to a business opportunity is really unintelligent. There is no correlation between the two. One has to do with market fluctuations and the other has to do with personalities. Get real! Accusation - Can you break down the promotion process, in detail? Be sure to explain how a representative can receive two 48% raises in their first 60-90 days using the accelerated management program'. Does this raise consist of your up-line' receiving a lower commission in addition to your recruits, or does this suggest that the raise comes solely from your recruits which means they (your recruits) are making only 4%? Response - Deceptive question. You first have to identify the product since each have different percentages for commissions. But, you should also note that a promotion can only be given after a person is appointed to Primerica Life. Thus, if it takes 90 days to get the license, he can not receive any commissions from life sales. But, if the recruit doesn't accomplish the 3 recruits, he would be at a "rep" level receiving 25% commission on annual paid premium amounts. If the recruit recruits 3 persons, the RVP can promote them to a "District" leader which is paid 50% on the life premiums. That's a 100% increase in "potential" commission when they sell a policy. 2(48%) = 96% is wrong. I'm sorry you can't understand simple math. What your 4% annalogy is makes no sense. We earn money four ways. Direct commissions from our own personal sales, overrides from agent sales(just like real estate agents earn their splits or overrides when they sell houses or loans), residual income from the sales of securities and bonuses for the RVP's. DIRECTIONS Please provide a complete, concise, subjective analysis of the material. You will be graded for your understanding of the subject matter; content; and supporting documentation. Failure to do so will result in an F' and further proof on why Primerica's system is flawed. What a stupid set of directions. You in no way can judge me for my knowledge since you can't even understand what an override is. Not only that, everything you wrote only shows you know nothing about MLM, real estate, financial serives or corporate business structures. You receive an F for your lack of knowledge in all these areas.

accuser - Using this hypothesis, this would suggest that Primerica will always have 5% of the reps in their company making over $50-100K and the remainder making significantly less. Acknowledging insider trading is illegal, this would further suggest that the only way to excel to the top 5%, you have to be lucky or do something illegal and/or unethical. Response - I find most of your test amusing. But, this has no resemblence of reality. Your assumption is that because only 5% earn an average of $150,000 (the RVP's) that somehow our company is worse than any other company. Here is a question for you. How many or what percent in your business or company earn $50,000 a year? $100,000 a year. In your world, only a few at the top have the possibility to earn that kind of money since for others to move up the corporate pyramid, people have to get fired, get sick or die for room to open up. And, only a few will ever move up, far less than the 5% Primerica produces. To also bring you into reality, the company is clear to put out recruiting materials that clearly remind persons joining that there are no guarantees to sucess in Primerica. Success is up to how a recruit responds to the prescribed mode of development. Most, don't follow this. That is not Primerica's fault. Also, the company expressly desires new persons to start part-time and not leave their full-time jobs until a person can live on their Primerica income. Someone agreed with you and shows that the average income of all agents that don't earn the big bucks is about $5,800. Now, if I work 4 hours a day for 5 days a week part-time at a conveinence store at $9hr., the monthly part-time income would be $9,360 a year. However, there is no possibility to advance or ever have an opportunity to earn $50,000 or more a year. Also, most part-time persons that write business go on appointments less than once a week work less than 3 hours a week. When I worked part-time with them, I worked once or twice a week and brought in about $1,100 a month part-time. Therefore, I still got to see my family and earn enought to get by with my full-time teaching job. Not everyone is a sales person. But, all should have the right to try it if they want to without bitter persons stopping them with stupid articles like you wrote. Questiong 1: May I see you post your current income to everyone on line? No? That is a stupid request. If you want to check it out, the company posts income for its leaders every month. If there is something wrong with the numbers, then why over the last 28 years has the company not been shut down by the FEDS? Your assertions are lame. Grow up. Although I'm not there yet, my uplines are. And, if I follow their lead and do what they did, I'll be there too! You really out to go to a party thrown by our leaders and you will know what real freedom is. Stop being so miserable! To become financially free, a person must recruit a large down line to find great sales people and leaders. You are aware that the insurance industries numbers suggest that 85% quit in only a couple of years! It's not an easy business period. It is quite competitive and thus, one has to have a thick skin to progress forwards. Most don't! But, all should have the right to find out what they are made of. Take the insurance industry. Since over 80% of the life policies are cash value policies, that gives me a big advantage because they are easy to show clients how little coverage they can afford and what little cash build up they get for their money. Easy to replace with "buy term and invest the difference." Huge competitive edge. accusation - List why you feel an individual with no educational or career background in finance can give an expert, informed, subjective financial analysis and why you feel an individual who HAS that background and experience, can not? Response - Take an insurance agent for instance that goes along with the industry average with respect to selling cash value policies. When I can triple a clients coverage and help them have 5 times the money at retirement, you can take the so called "expert" and do you know what with them. The fact is, these so called experts really only have one year's experience and have done this over and over "giving the public a steady line of sacred bull." - Ralph Nader. Let me ask you a question. If you had the choice of being covered for $15,000 or $150,000 with the same premium, which policy would you choose to cover your two young children, one on the way and your precious wife if you die??? I chose the $150,000 when Primerica showed me how I was drastically underinsured by a ripoff agent peddling cash value policies. Also, your professionals hold the same licenses Primerica agents hold. They passed the same test and took the same pre-licensing classes. I'm not concerned with what you think an expert is. In my book, it's a person that gives me $150,000 coverage instead of $15,000 for the same price. By the way, trying to equate what the stock market does and why with how people respond to a business opportunity is really unintelligent. There is no correlation between the two. One has to do with market fluctuations and the other has to do with personalities. Get real! Accusation - Can you break down the promotion process, in detail? Be sure to explain how a representative can receive two 48% raises in their first 60-90 days using the accelerated management program'. Does this raise consist of your up-line' receiving a lower commission in addition to your recruits, or does this suggest that the raise comes solely from your recruits which means they (your recruits) are making only 4%? Response - Deceptive question. You first have to identify the product since each have different percentages for commissions. But, you should also note that a promotion can only be given after a person is appointed to Primerica Life. Thus, if it takes 90 days to get the license, he can not receive any commissions from life sales. But, if the recruit doesn't accomplish the 3 recruits, he would be at a "rep" level receiving 25% commission on annual paid premium amounts. If the recruit recruits 3 persons, the RVP can promote them to a "District" leader which is paid 50% on the life premiums. That's a 100% increase in "potential" commission when they sell a policy. 2(48%) = 96% is wrong. I'm sorry you can't understand simple math. What your 4% annalogy is makes no sense. We earn money four ways. Direct commissions from our own personal sales, overrides from agent sales(just like real estate agents earn their splits or overrides when they sell houses or loans), residual income from the sales of securities and bonuses for the RVP's. DIRECTIONS Please provide a complete, concise, subjective analysis of the material. You will be graded for your understanding of the subject matter; content; and supporting documentation. Failure to do so will result in an F' and further proof on why Primerica's system is flawed. What a stupid set of directions. You in no way can judge me for my knowledge since you can't even understand what an override is. Not only that, everything you wrote only shows you know nothing about MLM, real estate, financial serives or corporate business structures. You receive an F for your lack of knowledge in all these areas.

I'm excerpting from your post of 12/8: Talk about bad offices! In the past fiscal year, the 33 states, including the federal capital, (just in case you doubt) that Primerica tainted with their lack of ethics and bad business practices (to say the least) are: Alaska, Ohio, Michigan, New York, The District of Columbia, Florida, Pennsylvania, Missouri, Texas, Illinois, Arkansas, Arizona, Indiana, Oregon, Nevada, Massachusetts, Georgia (Duluth, GA is home of Primerica corporate), Colorado, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Idaho, Oklahoma, Tennessee, North Carolina, Mississippi, Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, New Jersey, Minnesota, Virginia, and Washington (in order of appearance). Not to mention, there are bad practices from several cities within these states. Cody, you kill me trying to make us think Primerica's bad business is only limited to a few bad offices. Everybody is generally saying the same thing about Primerica across the United States of America, but your office just happens to be the lamb amongst the wolves, give me a break! Let's add California to this list. I'm excerpting from a report (the link is http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-news/ 0100-press-releases/0090-2004/release091-04.cfm): "BENICIA On October 27, 2004, Herbert Amos Jones, 47, of Bethel Island, California, pled guilty in Contra Costa Superior Court to one felony count of grand theft. Jones, a former California-licensed insurance agent and regional vice president of Primerica Financial Services (PFS), was arrested as the result of an investigation by the California Department of Insurance's Investigation Division (CDI)." (technically speaking Jay you're within your rights to say that this didn't occur within the past fiscal year, but the main focus is that we're talking about bad offices and this is a clearcut case that goes beyond mere bad practice. BTW I like your magnificent reports).

I see Cody did $117,000 of life premium and he made $23,600. Had he been writing with good term life companies he would have have about $72,000 to $76,000. First of all, the premiums charged to the clients would have been about $80,000 total rather than $117,000, and commission rates are about 90-95% with other companies. If a client needs term insurance a quick check with the an internet search engine will show many MANY highly rated companies with much lower rates for men. Primerica's rates for women are just ridiculously high because the have unisex rates and charge men and women the same. No one else does this. Women pay far, far less with other companies than they do Primerica. Primerica is, was and always shall be "rubes selling to rubes". It will be people who bought a sales pitch hook, line and sinker, going out on a mission to make others swallow the same canned sales pitch.

This thread is getting longer and longer. The information out there against the Primerica reps claims is readily available. In reference to the pilot program that Cody mentioned State Farm allegedly has out for insurance is nothing like Cody attempted to describe. The program is called the S.L.A.T.E. program (State Farm Learning and Teaching Exchange). This is the excerpt straight from the website: "State Farm Learning and Teaching Exchange (S.L.A.T.E.) State Farm recognizes the benefit of ongoing, meaningful professional development for teachers. Unfortunately many schools are unable to honor some requests for developmental opportunities for their teachers because of a lack of available and qualified substitutes. In response, State Farm developed a program to address this concern. The State Farm Learning and Teaching Exchange program (S.L.A.T.E.) began as a PILOT PROGRAM at State Farm's corporate location and has been shared company wide to other State Farm locations for consideration. The program builds on an existing policy allowing State Farm employees a yearly paid Education Support (ES) day to volunteer in a local school. Choosing to use their Education Support Day benefit in this manner, State Farm employees volunteer as a substitute teacher in a school for a prearranged professional development opportunity for the partnering teacher. The S.L.A.T.E. program provides a cost savings to the partnering school districts as well. By utilizing S.L.A.T.E. substitutes, districts are not challenged to use their funds to hire substitutes when teachers are involved in professional development. In times of tight budgets, schools can allocate their substitute teacher budget for those times when teachers are sick or have an immediate need to be out of the classroom. This program also allows State Farm employees, as community citizens and taxpayers, the opportunity to truly understand the environment and challenges of today's schools...." AGAIN, THIS IS AN EXCERPT FROM STATE FARM'S WEBSITE! With that being said; I really feel sorry for these reps, because, the upper echelon of Primerica really has them believing every word they speak. I'm sure the State Farm pilot recruiting program was yet another lie from the Primerica RVP's bucket of tricks. Also if you want to know the REAL HISTORY of Primerica, search Primericabuster.com. You will really get an understanding of their checkered past. This scam has been going on for years now, but they have it covered well. I'M NOT SAYING THAT THE SCAM IS WITH ALL THE PRODUCTS THEY DISTRIBUTE, BUT WITH THE RECRUITING. ALTHOUGH IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT SOME REPS ARE PREDATORY IN THEIR MARKETING TECHIQUES FOR TERM vs. CASH VALUE POLICIES! (see PrimericaBuster) There has already been case law established that set a precedent in favor of Primerica. As a result, it will be difficult to get a class action lawsuit against them to stand. Until we can circumvent that particular case law, we MUST continue to use RipOffReport as a way to document our experiences with Primerica and its affiliates.

Anybody who has scoured the RoR for information on the Primerica opportunity, heed this call: READ THOUGH THIS REPORT. READ THE REBUTTALS AND THE UPDATES, AND CHECK THE SOURCES CITED THAT ARE CITED TO. Jay has PROVEN that this opportunity is bogus. And he didn't even need to rely on the word of Primerica-haters to do so. He used THE VERY WORDS AND NUMBERS that Primerica has used to entice you, and shown you exactly what those words and numbers mean. Anybody that is still confused, still wondering whether a Primerica gig is for them: READ JAY'S WORDS! By taking the time to write what he has written, he has done you a HUGE favor! Blind faith is NO WAY to run a "business." If you truly want to own your own business, the first thing you should know is that you DO NOT depend on the word of the people who have a vested interest in your activity. Jay is objective, your upline is not. As for the Product end, allow me to interject with a very simple proposition: The Primerica plan, in a general sense, is as follows: lower payments are better than higher payments because you can invest the difference, and debt is ALWAYS bad. The problem, however, is that this one size fits all approach doesn't even work within its own confines. The buy term and invest the difference hypothesis is based on the assumption that you can earn a 10-12% rate of return. But the get rid of debt as soon as possible hypothesis only works if your rate of return is LESS than the average APR of your credit line. So, if Primerica is marketing loan products, then those products are definitively non-competitive or possibly predatory, based solely on internal philosophies. WHY? It's simple! (sort of) Responsibly managed debt is favorable to pay it off quick and invest the difference SO LONG AS the expected rate of return exceeds the APR on the debt. So, if paying off the debt in a shorter period is the way to go, AND the expected rate of return is 10-12%, then the APR on Primerica financing MUST exceed 10-12% for the financial plan to be solid. And this, definitively, is NOT a good financial plan because the average ROR will be (at least today, and historically) higher than the average APR. The opportunity is thus bogus, the product is garbage, and these two points are provable via Primerica's own numbers combined with sheer logic. If you need more convincing , then you NEED to learn your lesson the hard way. If such is the case, then I feel for you, but don't say that you werent warned.

1. You attempt to make this point: "Now I think it would be unreasonable to assume that left to their own devices, they would formulate a strategy to get out of that hole. It's also unreasonable to assume they would seek help they would have to pay to get." This is extremely contradictory; Primerica charges fees for services, not upfront, direct fees, but they charge them. If we apply the "Cody theory" then they wouldn't want Primerica's services either now would they Cody. Pay attention to this Cody because it is real important: YOUR COMMISSIONS COME FROM THE FEES THAT ARE PAID BY YOUR CLIENTS! But, you further stated: "For no monetary fee, we formulate a plan to address all of those areas." 2. You attempt to make this point: "They have either no insurance, or are drastically underinsured because they have been sold an inappropriate and overly expensive whole life product." Primerica really believes everyone in the world has whole life insurance and everyone needs term. Do you even realize there are others in this world that sells term life insurance. My company offers it. It is NOTHING NEW! 3. You attempt to make this point: "By the time a Primerica Rep actually assembles his first FNA, he has seen at least a dozen preceding that one during his training, that his trainer has done for him." Why do you call this training, when it's, in fact, a sales pitch to whomever you convinced to do a "favor" for you (as Dave Derbin so eloquently suggested). 4. You attempt to make this point: "You are correct in the fact however, that in an environment such as Primerica, there will be many people making little money, and few making a lot of money. You are incorrect however, in assuming that is a bad thing." Actually I said in Primerica, there will be 5% winners and 95% losers. Also, if someone is using Primerica as their only means of income, you are pretty much a lot people that work for Primerica poor and worst off than before they took the opportunity. As you said, it's not a bad if there are a lot of people not making good money or any money at all for their efforts. That's impressive! By the way, who comes to your office just to have a good feeling? 5. You attempt to make this point: "If the total Office cash flow for a month is $150,000, this is how it would be distributed. Maybe $35,000 would go to the RVP. $25,000 would go to the full-time Reps, an average of $5,000 a rep. The remaining $90,000 would go to the part time reps, on an average of $2,000 a rep. This is purely hypothetical, but illustrates how a typical Primerica Office is run. If the office is smaller, the numbers go down in proportion, and vice-versa." Why be hypothetical, be factual! You should because you've proven made only around $3,600 in one month, that's good, also that may or may not be factual. You also showed that you made $27,742 for the fiscal year, that's factual (Based on the information you provided). Also remember that $573,000,000 divided 108,000 equals $5,305.56. That doesn't change, it is basic arithmetic! Please Cody, take the time to go on www.primerica.com; pull the 2004 payout (by Primerica); adjust for differences in income and you will prove to yourself that a typical RVP office DOES NOT MAKE $150,000 per month. 6. You attempt to make this point: "In September for example, the company had its' best recruiting month EVER. They recruited just over 30,000 new people worldwide. But we'll just include the US Population for this illustration. If the entire US Population were frozen in age, assuming a population of 350 million, of which 220 million are over 18, at the current record rates, it would take around 611 years to recruit everyone." Again, why assume. The US population is 297,834,268 as of December 8, 2005 20:14 GMT (EST+5). In 2004 there were 212.7 million over 18 years of age . Plus, in 2004, with the labor force being 145.4 million (16 yrs and over), your recruiting analysis is invalid. Use real numbers, it's easy to find that out on the web. It took me 15 seconds! 7. You attempt to make this point: "Or from purely a client standpoint, Primerica currently has 6 million clients worldwide. Again, we'll assume we're only using US Population. Of the 350 million citizens, we'll assume 80 million families. To get those 6 million clients, it took 27 years to get those. It would take 360 years at the current rate to service all those people." STOP, PLEASE STOP NOW! This is getting ridiculous! As previously stated and proven if you go on "Hoover's Online", those clients that you are IMAGINATING about are ALREADY CLIENTS OF OTHER MORE SUCCESSFUL COMPANIES. They do not want or need your services. I think the only point that was correct was that the US population is growing faster than Primerica reps, although the point behind in is a fallacy of composition, but true (only that US is growing faster than Primerica reps) nonetheless! Enough said: Cody, it's actually pretty good to see a young man (19) may be making around 27K per year. How long that will last, you and I don't know. Just like many multi-level-marketing systems, the bottom will probably drop out. However, you're young, you can bounce back. As for the evidence you presented here, thanks, because it gives us one of the greatest examples of how Primerica is deceptive and vague. I wonder was that story about the population the same story your RVP gave you. If so, tell him/her to think of another one, it's not working. Try Again Cody!

Dear Cody: I'm going to go step-by-step through the MESS you sent me. 1. Thanks for sending an actual depiction of what you make per month. The problem with that is, you expected me to be confused on how to read the information listed (as I should be), but let me see how close I can get to its actual interpretation. YOUR INCOME: In looking at your income, okay, you're one of the people who just MAY make good with Primerica's flawed system. However, as I look further, you have only made $27,745.00 in the past 12 months. You have submitted $117,585 in premiums in the past 12 months which means you're making around 23.6% off of your sales. If I'm reading it wrong, then, hey, you left a lot of room for interpretation. But, if I am reading it right, then what the hell are you bragging about? I make $27,700 in my sleep (I'll explain this to you below)! I have a question, what are advances? I see something that says "advances", then I see something that says "earns". Please explain the difference between the two? To my knowledge, an "advance" is monetary consideration that has to be paid back and what you "earn" is simply what you earn, PLEASE CLARIFY! Hey, Primerica uses the wrong definitions for a lot of words, so it won't surprise me that you all have a totally different definition for "advance" and "earn". It does look like you made text boxes over a couple of things on here (other than the black boxes), but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, GOOD JOB! 1A. TAXES - No person in America can operate without paying taxes (you have deductions, but can't avoid taxes) and I DO NOT SEE where you have paid taxes. Primerica may tell you that they have the magical system to keep reps from having to pay taxes, but BELIEVE ME you will pay taxes sooner or later. And please do not say that Primerica has already taken out taxes. REMEMBER, CODY, you own your business you have to file a 1099 form and pay the taxes on your own. But if they have already taken taxes, then somebody's getting screwed! Please explain the "Now since we get paid 1099" in the following sentence, it doesn't making any sense to the point you are trying effortlessly to make: "First one, Deb, is my mother. Left a job in September paying her roughly $2000 gross. Second one, Dave, left a job in October paying him $1800 gross. Now since we get paid 1099, these are take home incomes, which you probably already assumed." By the way, I don't assume, not with money! Bad business practice! WWW.PRIMERICA.COM You also failed to address the fact that Primerica paid $573,000,000 dollars to what I now realize was 108,000 people in their sales force in 2004. This would change the average (without differences in income) to $5,305.56 per year per representative. You may need to take a look at your own website before you come on here with this garbage. Don't just address the comments you THINK you can refute, ADDRESS EVERYTHING! I'm also sure since you have a more in depth experience with Primerica, you can quote verbatim the actual income breakdowns. The people who are making over 4 million; over 1 million; 500K-1 million; 100K-500K; and 0 100K. Keep in mind, Primerica only paid $573 million last year! Please stop writing people off as not working hard because they are not making money at Primerica. They are not making money because of the system of Primerica, not because 95% of Primerica does not work hard! 2. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING HERE! You were trained by Primerica to recruit and sale products. Those products happen to be life insurance, annuities, and some other investment instruments. THAT IS WHY YOU NEED TO BE LICENSED! Licensed, because of the federal rules and regulations regarding financial instruments; you can't even distribute them without the government needing to know everyone that's attempting to sale these services. The licenses DON'T MAKE YOU A FINANCIAL ADVISOR/PLANNER; they make you a salesman who can sell investment instruments. Talk about bad offices! In the past fiscal year, the 33 states, including the federal capital, (just in case you doubt) that Primerica tainted with their lack of ethics and bad business practices (to say the least) are: Alaska, Ohio, Michigan, New York, The District of Columbia, Florida, Pennsylvania, Missouri, Texas, Illinois, Arkansas, Arizona, Indiana, Oregon, Nevada, Massachusetts, Georgia (Duluth, GA is home of Primerica corporate), Colorado, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Idaho, Oklahoma, Tennessee, North Carolina, Mississippi, Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, New Jersey, Minnesota, Virginia, and Washington (in order of appearance). Not to mention, there are bad practices from several cities within these states. Cody, you kill me trying to make us think Primerica's bad business is only limited to a few bad offices. Everybody is generally saying the same thing about Primerica across the United States of America, but your office just happens to be the lamb amongst the wolves, give me a break! 2A. As for the training, I was told by the District Leader in Cleveland, Ohio, Dave Derbin ( you can call him by the way) that you don't make money until you receive your licenses that's why they encourage you to pursue them expeditiously. You mentioned yourself, the paid training does not come from PRIMERICA or CITIGROUP (why you mentioned them is pointless) but from your office, so paid training is at the discretion of your office and not a policy within the Primerica system. Again, I guess Rochester New York has the only office (out of 33 states and some Canadian provinces) paying for training, interesting! By the way, I had the RVP calling me on the phone everyday and I was barely signed up. Just so you know his name is Howard Eisley. He's from Florida. One of the pseudo District Managers that operated on the west side of Cleveland, near the airport, was Dave Derbin as I mentioned earlier. I got offered a trip to Hawaii, before I even submitted my $199.00 (which I got back, because I cancelled the transaction). 3. You have a lot in your down line, 58 to be exact, and 7 of them even got licensed for life insurance. That's 12% of your down line making money; doesn't sound like an efficient system to me. By the way, are you paying 58 people $33.00 for every appointment, since you're the Division Leader? Were you even paying the 7 licensed people $33.00 per appointment? Are they making $2,000 per month off of training, (in addition to allegedly closing loans) also? Because you did say, At my office a new recruit gets $33 per appointment regardless of business being done. Between my appointment compensation, which comes direct from your UPLINE, not Primerica or Citigroup, and compensation from closed loans, I made over $2000 my first month. But I guess they too can make $27,000 a year and become part of the class you all claim to be helping, lower to middle class! With all of the fillers you put in your response, you failed to prove how you are helping your reps make it to financial freedom. Because 7 of them have a license?! Are you really serious?! 4. Your fourth point was interesting because you start off insulting every other Primerica rep that has submitted threads on this website. Also, do you understand what the word indirectly means? Based on your response, you don't because it simply means, for example, one may do something in a round about way, in some way, circuitously! With that being said, Primerica seems to think that they can outperform every financial advisor, planner, consultant, or distributor of financial products (which IS why the efficient markets hypothesis applies) AND THAT'S HOW THEY INDIRECTLY CLAIM A SUSTAINED COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE! 4A. About your target market! Let's consider the lower class; they would not be your target market for a client sale, but a target market for recruiting purposes. Here's why: Most of the people that make up the lower class, DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY! They cannot buy a house, most, if not all of them are renting. Why they can't afford a house, because they make $25,000 or less a year (and that's giving them a lot of money). If they made more, then they wouldn't be considered lower class right! A house consists of a mortgage payment; insurance payment; tax payment; private mortgage insurance payment (remember lower class people would have to get this); utilities payments; maintenance; ETC. With only 1,900 dollars a month (gross), they will eventually have to foreclose their home. If you don't believe this, YOU need to look at some federal statistics! You think that you can recruit the lower class, because they don't have the same access to information as wealthier people, so it would be easy for you to sway them using your system. That's why you don't want someone who has already been in the industry, because you say, they wouldn't understand why we do things the way we do them (as quoted from the District Manager in Cleveland). So that leaves the middle class. These people have a little bit of money to play around withsome with houses; investments, etc.; some without. The reason the middle class is Primerica's target market is because they have limited and/or little access to information and how they differ from the lower class is they are seeking more information. So I wouldn't necessarily call that a competitive advantage, more taking advantage of a class of people in need of financial services. Pretending like you know all about their situation, however, the only financial exposure any rep from Primerica has is what their up line taught them. Remember INSURANCE/FINANCIAL SALES LICENSE DOES NOT EQUAL FINANCIAL EXPERTISE! I can put sh_t in a bag and sell it as gourmet chocolate, but that don't make it gourmet! 4B. One of Primerica's biggest problems is, they are ALWAYS IMAGINING! Your imaging every investment will consistently have a return of 10 or 12% when, in fact, that's untrue. Stop imagining for a second and realize that everybody's situation is not one-size-fits-all! There is no such thing as the perfect world and it is just as unreasonable to assume that the basic package system can fit everybody's life style. I guarantee you, when the sh_t hits the fan, there are going to be a lot of lawsuits against Primerica for their cookie-cutter system. You know what though Cody, if you existed in the real world of financial advising, you would have made a lot of money just off the number of FNAs you've done. Considering you did around 250 FNAs multiplied by the average $300.00 per consultation, that's already $75,000 just off of a consultation! But, you're right, you can't charge a fee for showing someone an 8.5 x 11 brochure and call that a consultation! By the way, CODY, PRIMERICA (REPS) DO NOT HAVE A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE! To have a competitive advantage (sustained), your profits must exceed the average for your industry and it doesn't; your cost must be lower than the average and it isn't (based on the fact that Primerica forwards all of the cost to the reps). Go to a financial website and check if you don't believe me! There are companies that cater to the middle class in the financial market and are doing extremely better than Primerica in terms of the products they distribute; the cost of those products; and the expertise they give the consumer. Want to know one, Ameriprise Financial Services, listed on the NYSE as AMP. They have a greater market share, and I'm sure you've seen the commercials; they do cater to the middle class! Primerica is the sticky stuff at the bottom of the barrel in the financial services industry! 5. A college degree, of course, does not equal experience. However, a college degree equals a sound understanding of the theory behind practical experience, which tends to lead to a better practical experience. You only know what your RVP told you, therefore, you can't understand any other financial principle other than the ones you were exposed to through them. Personally, I feel that you can tell me NOTHING about how to manage my income generated from my rental property. To do so would be an exercise in futility! As a matter of fact, I have a degree in finance and I will be taking the test for my CFM, CMA certificationsalso I have just been asked by a local CPA firm to assist them with some tax consulting, so believe me, I have the creditability! I am not saying that every financial advisor has to come from a financial educational background, what I am saying is, don't assume that Primerica salespeople can hold a candle to any REAL financial advisor in the industry, because their (Primerica's) training is geared towards a one-way approach, nothing else! 5A. A.L. Williams converted to Primerica Financial, you really should not have made that comment, because everyone knows the history of A.L. Williams. Also, why even mention the State Farm thing, what point are you trying to make? First, you talk about some company that you can't remember the name; then you mention State Farm's pilot company, similar to A.L. Williams (is that pilot company still in operation?); I guess the point is that whole paragraph was nothing but abstract garbage, you NEVER MADE YOUR POINT! Essay Question You stated, Without corporations the efficient markets hypothesis does not apply. This proves your level of intelligence and your understanding of the subject matter. If you REALLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT THE EFFICIENT MARKET HYPOTHESIS IS, you would know that its underlying principle is about financial markets; prices traded on assets; stock prices, investors investments and returns. If you don't know something, at least do a search! The hypothesis applies, because it proves that in the financial market (isn't Primerica in the financial market) with already known information, investors CANNOT outperform current and future prospects that are investing in the market. Your labor is equal to your investment and your income, or lack therefore, is equal to your returns. You have the same information as everybody else in the financial market, including the people who were at Primerica before you. Remember you only operate with the ABC's of Financial Needs. Because that system is not going to change and Primerica holds NO NEW INFORMATION, the returns are already exhausted! The proof of that is on PRIMERICA'S WEBSITE AND THE RECRUITING TOOLS THEY DISTRIBUTE, I really shouldn't have to explain this to you. DO YOUR MATH; YOU CLAIM TO BE A FINANCIAL EXPERT, PLEASE, DO YOUR MATH! I don't have to pretend to be intelligent; the very nature of my ability to refute any Primerican in an effective, articulate way speaks to that. Grasping for straws, it seems like you are! You are grasping for straws because you thought everybody would think that the $117,000 was your salary and it's not. It's not because you prove it with your explanation of how you get raises. You've submitted $117,000 in life insurance premiums and made $27,000 off of that. That's not millions of dollars Cody, stop lying please! WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THAT there will be some people who will never hold a significant position is any job, but at least those people will make enough money to meet the cost of living. If everybody was a manager and above, then there would be no corporate hierarchy! Considering the actual breakdown of income from Primerica, if this were a career for everyone who worked for Primerica, there would be a lot of people left out in the cold. The information (or scenario) you provided from the paragraph, If the total office down to where you began to discuss the Bonus Question is full of generalizations; bad assumptions; and erroneous points; everyone that reads this would agree that I do not need to comment on this. However, concerning the compensation levels and raises, did I type that what I submitted was actually how Primerica it set up, NO; although, there was some paperwork that I received from Dave Derbin that spoke to that nature. I guess compensation and raises is yet another piece of Primerica's puzzle left up to the discretion of the individual office. The Bonus Question It's funny, your raise level says that if you do $7,500 dollars a month in yearly life premiums (and have 3 direct districts), then you will be Regional. Well you have submitted $117,585 worth of premiums over the past year, unless you don't have 3 direct districts, shouldn't you be Regional already? Cody, this is not a generalization, this is what YOU SUBMITTED! Also, how do you make commissions off of any financial product that is sold, if you don't have your license and yet you're still making commissions off of the sale of financial products, that, my friend, IS ILLEGAL! Again, the theory of overriding more people is erroneous, because if those people are not generating any income there is nothing to override. That's why YOU HAVE 58 PEOPLE IN YOUR DOWN LINE AND ONLY MAKE $27,000! You can NEVER refute me! The fact still remains, the truth taste better than a belly full of lies. Your belly is FULL buddy! I have broken everything that you submitted down to a fine mound of powder. How dare you even attempt to comment on anything I wrote, you don't have the ability! The Game Let's play your game: Answer to question one: Read the rest of my threads, not going to write another book. You will see them, because they are from Cleveland & Euclid, Ohio respectively. Answer to question two: Was recruited by Dave Derbin, alleged District Manager from Pittsburgh, PA. Claimed he came over to Cleveland, Ohio because there were no other representatives in the area. But, you have proven him wrong. Don't believe me, call him, Dave Derbin (440) 915-5083, he'll be happy to here from you. Also, they didn't even have a business office; he and his colleagues out of the Hampton Inn off of Engle Road! Answer to question three: Do you think I was that stupid to continue on with that mess, please! As I stated in the beginning of my comments, I make $27,000 in my sleep. Check this out: although my 6 4-unit apartments give me hell, they provide a gross income of $15,600 per month. I also have income coming from 24 washers and 24 dryers, so you see Cody, that's effective gross income of $189,200 per year (before operating expenses, debt services, depreciation, and taxes). Remember Cody, this is MY PART TIME JOB, in my full time job; I make around $48,000 per year (before tax and adjusted for overtime). I file taxes, a Schedule E (rents and royalties) and NO, I didn't have or need any down line. Answer to question four: There are close to 490 threads and 30+ pages of comments on this website concerning Primerica, I'm sure you can find the answer to this question in here. I personally don't associate with anyone from Primerica. When I did consider joining, it was only to add to my current income, I don't need Primerica, Primerica needs me! My time is money, they (Primerica) wasted my time with the garbage they tried to offer me, and therefore, they wasted my money. Not only that, they asked me for employment references, took my references and called them for an investment opportunity. No, I have not met Christopher and Elizabeth Koob, don't care to meet them, they have nothing to offer me. You say I don't know you, yet you claim to know something about me. In what way do you think you will ever know me? MY LIFE IS GREAT and that's why choose to make the time to come in here and defend people and hope my words protect people from making a decision about Primerica without knowing all of the facts. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE having tenants that give me HELL, never said it was a problem; I love over $15,000 a month of income! They give me hell because everybody wants a break, just like Primerica wants a break, but in the REAL WORLD, you don't get them. I work very hard and I have time on my hands because I did the hard work up front. With 58 people in your down line, how do you have so much time? A few things to consider, before you try to break down anything that I write, study up. One, you used the word, vicarious out of context, so why would you even be able to understand how to correlate the efficient markets hypothesis to Primerica's financial system. The American Heritage Dictionary defines vicarious (adjective) as: Felt or undergone as if one were taking part in the experience or feelings of another. You used it like this: Our viewpoints will also most likely not change, no matter how vicarious the other is in pursuing his point. It looks like you were trying to find a large word to use there; shame on you Cody. Two, if I read your comments from a subjective point of view that would mean that I'm reading your comments from a slanted, skewed, one-sided point of view. Wouldn't the proper term be objective? I can see spelling/grammatical errors (and commonly misused words e.g. your vs. you're), but using words out of context comes from a person trying to sound intelligent! In conclusion, I don't think there is anything unprofessional about the way I have presented THE FACTS (and some of my opinions) about Primerica. The truth is; it left a bad taste in your mouth. Remember, that comes from consuming a whole bunch of lies and deceptions. You DIDN'T READ my comments thoroughly because you didn't comment on Primerica's income breakdown, but I guess you practice selective reading. P.S. Stay in school!

The comments to follow are NOT from your typical PFS rep. Nor do they come from a rep in the traditional vein of PFS. They are however from someone who cares about his job, and does it well. They are from someone who works harder than 99% of those he runs into. They are from someone who's directs are expected to perform, or they are not brought on. They are from someone who has fun, is building a business, and fully expects to be at a Vice President contract level within 6 months. And, by company guidelines, could have been a VP months ago. However, it is my every intention to set records along the way and make an example of myself for how this is supposed to be done. Without any further delay, here are the answers to your questions Jay: 1) http://pfsproof.50megs.com/ There is my November Income, and my YTD income. I also included 2 of my direct's incomes, to prove a point. First one, Deb, is my mother. Left a job in September paying her roughly $2000 gross. Second one, Dave, left a job in October paying him $1800 gross. Now since we get paid 1099, these are take home incomes, which you probably already assumed. These are from our company intranet, as its easier this way than scanning in paper docs that say the same things. Take it or leave it, I'm making plenty of money, my downlines are making plenty of money, and I'm having fun doing it. 2) So list the steps Primerica took to make me successful... Primerica, as a corporation, provided me with training in the way of life and securities pre-licensing, and the resources to run my business. That's where the corporate influence ends, and the personal influence starts. Coincidentally, it's also the reason for the great split in opinions of PFS. For those in great Offices, people love PFS, and can't understand why people are skeptical. For those in bad offices, people feel PFS is a scam and no one makes any money. Which is true, because, well, no one makes any money in bad offices! So during my training, I was coached every step of the way. From my first phone call to my first recruit, to my first sale, to my first promotion, to my full time date, to my first downline going full time, everything. I was reimbursed for my training as promised. In fact, I made more money training than I did at my part time job. At my office a new recruit gets $33 per appointment regardless of business being done. Between my appointment compensation, which comes direct from your upline, not Primerica or Citigroup, and compensation from closed loans, I made over $2000 my first month. Is that average? Hell no! But I wholeheartedly believe that anyone could work as hard as I did, it's his or her prerogative to do otherwise. As for the future, I now work one on one with my RVP on a daily basis to further develop my skills and move my business. And when I do go out to Vice President, I fully expect to make over a quarter million my first year out. Not because it's a pipe dream, not because I'm hopeful, but because of the way the office is run, and its expected. Don't believe me? That's fine, I'll come back in a few months and show you those pay statements too. 3) I have a sizeable downline, but of them, at any given time, I would say only thirty of them have a chance of winning here. Not because the others are less skilled, but because they don't do the work requested of them. They are the type that would go on the Internet and complain about how PFS doesn't work for them. And notice that these people were not recruited by me, but rather my downlines. I can only be responsible for my own actions, not those of others. All I can do is set the bar high, be a good example and hope others follow. As far as what I'm doing to ensure their financial independence? Same thing that was done for me. In fact probably more in some cases than I had done for me. Outside of the two reps I had indicated above, there is one other life-licensed rep, and two more who's licenses are being processed by the state. The other currently licensed rep is Dave's son, and just made his first sale not too long ago. I certainly feel that this time next year they'll be in the position I'm in, if not better. Agree or disagree on the methodology in getting there, they're going to have great lives just as I will. 4) Given the caliber of typical Primerica Rep who posts online, I doubt any of them actually said Sustained Competitive Advantage. In any event, I'll play along and illustrate how that plays out. For this to make sense, you need to keep something in mind. Something that I feel most detractors either fail to realize or forget. And that is our target market. Our target market is someone in the lower to middle class. That person has nothing saved for retirement, or very little in a 401(k). They have a mortgage that they refinance on average every five years. They have a mountain of consumer debt that continues to grow as they spend more than they make. They have either no insurance, or are drastically underinsured because they have been sold an inappropriate and overly expensive whole life product. So imagine that scenario for a moment. Now I think it would be unreasonable to assume that left to their own devices, they would formulate a strategy to get out of that hole. It's also unreasonable to assume they would seek help they would have to pay to get. Enter the Primerica Representative. For no monetary fee, we formulate a plan to address all of those areas. Now I will never say we have the 100% best product in any given area. We do however have competitive products that are not far off the market' best offer in any area. When these tools are assembled, free of charge, for a client, that client ends up in a significantly better position that they were in before. So while it is reasonable to assume a client could do better on his own, it is unreasonable to assume that they actually will. That is why there is a place in the market for our services, and that is why we have a competitive advantage. 5) I feel that anyone, with proper training, can give qualified financial advice. No one enters the financial services industry with experience. And a college degree does not equal experience. Everyone needs to start somewhere, and everyone needs a first client. By the time a Primerica Rep actually assembles his first FNA, he has seen at least a dozen preceding that one during his training, that his trainer has done for him. He also holds the same license that any other rep in any company would. The difference is the typical Primerica Rep had a successful career in a different vocation prior to coming on board. In fact, the number of Insurance Producers in the US has been on a steady decline for years. At the current time, the name of the organization escapes me, but upon request I'll acquire it. Anyway, a study done not long ago by that organization came to the conclusion that to reverse the disturbing trend is to begin recruiting soccer moms and other non traditional producers. In fact, not to long ago, State Farm began a pilot program out in California very much like the Primerica system. It's multi-level, where anyone can recruit anyone, and the company handles licensing just like we do. It's almost identical to the old A.L. Williams, but it markets whole life, and expensive term. Never heard of it? Take a look into it, it's rather interesting. Essays: First off, essays? I fail to see how answering an essay will accomplish anything other than to amuse you, but I shall do so anyway. For the first essay, you are totally off-base. You cannot apply that principle to the manner in which a Primerica business is run and built. What Eugene was implying certainly was not meant to reflect in any way shape or form to the Primerica Sales Force. To do so is relative to saying that the Keynesian Theory of Economics applies to an individual corporation. Without the government component, Keynes' theory holds no water. Without multiple corporations to consider and collect and aggregate from, Fama's argument holds no weight either. Seems to me your grasping at straws to sound perhaps more intellectual than you may indeed be. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call it a mere misunderstanding. You are correct in the fact however, that in an environment such as Primerica, there will be many people making little money, and few making a lot of money. You are incorrect however, in assuming that is a bad thing. Not everyone has the personality, the skills, or the intelligence to become a Regional Vice President. Thus, everyone will simply not attain that level. But it is my firm belief that everyone can obtain a license and help a family or two a month and make extra money for their family. Should a potential recruit be led to believe otherwise, then shame on the recruiting representative. In my particular office, there is on average on hundred people in attendance per week. Of them, approximately 5 of them are serious about making Primerica their career. Those 5 are making good money, a category of which I'm a part of. Another 35-60 are licensed, and happy making part-time money, and being in a good environment doing so. The rest are either in training, new, or just come for the good feeling. If the total Office cash flow for a month is $150,000, this is how it would be distributed. Maybe $35,000 would go to the RVP. $25,000 would go to the full-time Reps, an average of $5,000 a rep. The remaining $90,000 would go to the part time reps, on an average of $2,000 a rep. This is purely hypothetical, but illustrates how a typical Primerica Office is run. If the office is smaller, the numbers go down in proportion, and vice-versa. In that illustrative office, they would produce a new Vice President every 3-6 months. And the great thing is, the market is expanding faster than Primerica is. In September for example, the company had its' best recruiting month EVER. They recruited just over 30,000 new people worldwide. But we'll just include the US Population for this illustration. If the entire US Population were frozen in age, assuming a population of 350 million, of which 220 million are over 18, at the current record rates, it would take around 611 years to recruit everyone. Or from purely a client standpoint, Primerica currently has 6 million clients worldwide. Again, we'll assume we're only using US Population. Of the 350 million citizens, we'll assume 80 million families. To get those 6 million clients, it took 27 years to get those. It would take 360 years at the current rate to service all those people. Combine the two aspects, with the US Population held at a constant, it would take roughly 180 years to recruit and service the entire US Population. Now consider that the number of people is expanding faster than the number of PFS reps, the fact the not everyone is right to be a PFS rep, and that we're a worldwide company, and it paints a pretty bright picture for longevity. So that, is both the explanation as to why the spread exists, and also as to why anyone with motivation can achieve those levels. Hopefully that makes sense. BONUS QUESTION Simply put, the raises and compensation questions you raise are invalid. They are not the way the Primerica compensation system works. For your reference, here's how it works. For simplicities sake, I'm only going to use Life Insurance compensation, but it works the same for all product lines. Commission Rates, by Level: Rep: 25% Sr. Rep: 35% District Leader: 50% Division Leader: 60% Regional Leader: 70% Regional Vice President: 95% Promotion Guidelines: Rep: Obtain Life License Sr. Rep: Hire 3 Associates District: Do $2500 in yearly Life Premium in a month timespan Division: Do $5000 in yearly Life Premium in a month timespan, have a direct District Regional: Do $7500 in yearly Life Premium in a month Timespan, have 3 Direct Districts RVP: Do $10,000 two months in a row. You can obtain a District Promotion while in training. Thus the premise of your Accelerated Management Program. Thus, in effect, a 100% pay raise from 25% to 50% commission while unlicensed and still in training. You override your downlines' entire teams. Therefore the theory is that you will be overriding more people, with less on each individual. That may or not make sense, and if desired, I can explain in more detail. So now it's MY turn. I've played your game, I've refuted your points, and answered your questions. I've given you a glimpse into what its like to be in a good Primerica office. Now I want information from you. 1) What was your encounter with Primerica? 2) If recruited, where and what office? 3) If recruited, what licenses were obtained, and how big and productive was your downline? 4) Who can you point to and with full faith go Primerica has had a definitive and quantitative negative impact in that person's life? I notice your from Cleveland, OH. This happens to be where Christopher and Elizabeth Koob, Senior National Sales Directors, have their office. I happen to know they have one of the biggest and most productive hierarchies in the company. Pure speculation on my part tells me that either yourself or someone you has been for a brief time part of that. And you had a bad experience. So either detail the bad one for me, or if you haven't been down there, look them up in the yellow pages, head down there on a Tuesday night, and realize that life is too short to be ignorant of the possibilities. Perhaps you or someone you know had a bad experience. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps you're wrong. I don't know you, and you don't know me. Chances are that this electronic media will be the only way we ever communicate. Our viewpoints will also most likely not change, no matter how vicarious the other is in pursuing his point. Here's what I know about you so far. You have a lot of free time on your hands. I know this because of the actions you've taken against Primerica, and indirectly, me. You're not 100% happy with your life because of the previous said reason and also that I own just six 4-unit apartments and my tenants are giving me hell.. I also know that you or someone close to you had an encounter in life that prompted this crusade of yours. Or, you're doing at the expense of lesser-minded individuals, for no reason other than your own personal pleasure. You can deduce similar things about myself, although perhaps more positive. Here, in a nutshell, is my current outlook on life. I am a 19-year-old former college student with above-average intelligence. My group of friends and contacts have over the course of a year gone from my drunken frat buddies to people making over a million dollars a year, the proverbial fat-cats'. My travel life has gone from my little apartment in college to the frat and back to locations such as Belize, Hawaii, San Diego, Las Vegas, Fresno, and Germany. Some company-paid, some personally funded trips sponsored by the top producers in my office. I am months away from being a Regional Vice President, making far more than I would have with a Master's Degree in Software Engineering from the Rochester Institute of Technology. Because of my perhaps blind faith and youthful exuberance, I am in a position that I feel is about as good as I could possibly be in. See Jay, I know there are misconceptions about PFS. But then, what company doesn't have them? What company doesn't have its detractors? When I started, I began with a totally neutral and subjective approach. All I ask is that you read this from a totally subjective approach, handle it like an adult, and either disagree respectfully, or ask for clarification. Thanks for taking time to read this thoroughly, as I have read your insights. Looking forward to our next conversation, Cody

I still see a host of Primerica representatives responding to a multitude of threads on this website. Remember, if you really want to get your point across, go head, give my test a try. Don't even attempt to write my test off as "opinion", because my analysis is based on the writings and philosophies of a former Nobel Peace Prize (in Finance) candidate. Not only that, the information I have gathered on Primerica comes from information distributed by Primerica and its website! STOP OVERLOOKING THIS THREAD AND TAKE THE TEST! The truth is, unless you are one of the 5,000 representatives that DO make a living ($50-100K and above), your comments alone are pointless. You are going to have to substantiate a HONEST, DOCUMENTED claim. HEY PRIMERICA, FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE, BE HONEST!

6 weeks ago I was hired into the primerica company. Right now I am still in the training process. When I got hired they made it sound like I was going to be successfull in owning my own business and they will help me do that. To me it sound great and I was excited until they asked me for a $200 fee. They told me that the fee was broken down into going into business training school. They had me sign a contract saying that the $200 it will be reinburesed to me even if you decided to not pursuit the job. A few weeks later I brought a friend and she also got hired into the company. They also asked her for the $200 fee and she asked her mother for the money. Her mother brought to my attention that it was a scam and it is some kind of company pyramid. I took caution of what she said but I wanted to see it for myself so I decided to go into training. I found out that I wasn't getting paid for training that I was getting paid commision for whatever many insurance applications I submitted. I didn't understand, we don't get paid until we sell insurance but we can't sell insurance until licensed. Before licensed you were sent to business training school, a 45 min. drive for me and I had to take a 40 hour class in order to get licensed. They didn't really care that my car was down. The time in between getting licensed and finishing training school I was going to have to take a major test. Only 3 chances to take the test. After a few days of thought I decided not to go to training school and put primerica to the side for a moment. After primerica found out that I was working 2 jobs they tried to force these meetings and seminars into my schedule. My thing is, am I going to get my $200 back that I had sacrificed? So I guess I can say that I am still a so-called employee. All I want is my money back. Is that possible? I can tell you that primerica's recruiting system is kind of fishy. They will hire you and then ask for references. They will then ask your references if they want to consider working for primerica then try to do a Financial Needs Analysis. They primerily focus on younger people between the ages of 18-25 with very little to no knowledge of the business world. The training is very confusing and extremely boring. They will show you a lot of articles saying the primerica is the largest company of God knows what and then you tend to dose off. After a few days of training they will try to pressure you into buying life insurance, $15 a month. I was suckered into that because they said that you will be getting paid in direct deposit and at the same time they will take money out of your account for life insurance. I also must warn you about driving to different cities for meetings, siminars, and training. You don't get paid for it as mentioned or get any gas but they say it is a tax write off. I thought tax write offs had to do with people that had children. So overall I am telling you is that once you get hired these so-called RVP's and managers are making money off of you. It may sound great to you at first but in the long run you are actually getting screwed over. As they say "Time is money" but you are wasting your TIME while they are making MONEY off of you.

im not a former employee of primerica, but my wife is a current employee. she has been with them for about 2 months now and still has yet to se a dime. she had a good job and decided to quit it.she really thinks that this job will bring her to success. i tell her its a bunch of b.s. since she has to recruit a minimal of 4 people i belive, then 2 of the 4 have to recruit another 2 people each. that is just to get her 1st raise. i do not have a problem with primericas products, but the way their employment is run is unbelievable. as the bills keep coming in and my income alone barely covers it, i ask her whats going to happen when i get layed off or hurt on my job, she replies ill have to work harder. i dont know about you but working harder in a job that doesnt pay isnt going to get you any more income than zero. i will show my wife your questions and i will be eager to hear what she has to say. oh yeah and her so called distrrict team leader seems more like a used car saleman than a financial advisor.

Thanks to everybody for the support. We all have written very detailed rebuttals against Primerica and I have yet to read an comment (from Primerica reps) that had any merit. Stuart, I intended to mention salary, because that's guaranteed income. The income (or commission)they are quoting, even the meager $2,300/year, is not guaranteed. That's the point I am making. Also, if you add all of the expenses that go along with the job, they (the Crimerica reps) would be operating with negative earnings. For example, gas alone costs around $30.00 per week which is $1,560 yearly. That leaves the 'Primerica Geniuses' $740.00 a year or $14.23 a week. I guess, I didn't add that stuff, because looking at what they make a year, I kind of felt sorry for them (laughing). Anyway, like you all, I am eager to see what rebuttals they make on behalf of Primerica. I also have CD's of material that was given to me from Primerica, I finally looked at them and WOW, was it cheesy!

Thanks to everybody for the support. We all have written very detailed rebuttals against Primerica and I have yet to read an comment (from Primerica reps) that had any merit. Stuart, I intended to mention salary, because that's guaranteed income. The income (or commission)they are quoting, even the meager $2,300/year, is not guaranteed. That's the point I am making. Also, if you add all of the expenses that go along with the job, they (the Crimerica reps) would be operating with negative earnings. For example, gas alone costs around $30.00 per week which is $1,560 yearly. That leaves the 'Primerica Geniuses' $740.00 a year or $14.23 a week. I guess, I didn't add that stuff, because looking at what they make a year, I kind of felt sorry for them (laughing). Anyway, like you all, I am eager to see what rebuttals they make on behalf of Primerica. I also have CD's of material that was given to me from Primerica, I finally looked at them and WOW, was it cheesy!

Thanks to everybody for the support. We all have written very detailed rebuttals against Primerica and I have yet to read an comment (from Primerica reps) that had any merit. Stuart, I intended to mention salary, because that's guaranteed income. The income (or commission)they are quoting, even the meager $2,300/year, is not guaranteed. That's the point I am making. Also, if you add all of the expenses that go along with the job, they (the Crimerica reps) would be operating with negative earnings. For example, gas alone costs around $30.00 per week which is $1,560 yearly. That leaves the 'Primerica Geniuses' $740.00 a year or $14.23 a week. I guess, I didn't add that stuff, because looking at what they make a year, I kind of felt sorry for them (laughing). Anyway, like you all, I am eager to see what rebuttals they make on behalf of Primerica. I also have CD's of material that was given to me from Primerica, I finally looked at them and WOW, was it cheesy!

Thanks to everybody for the support. We all have written very detailed rebuttals against Primerica and I have yet to read an comment (from Primerica reps) that had any merit. Stuart, I intended to mention salary, because that's guaranteed income. The income (or commission)they are quoting, even the meager $2,300/year, is not guaranteed. That's the point I am making. Also, if you add all of the expenses that go along with the job, they (the Crimerica reps) would be operating with negative earnings. For example, gas alone costs around $30.00 per week which is $1,560 yearly. That leaves the 'Primerica Geniuses' $740.00 a year or $14.23 a week. I guess, I didn't add that stuff, because looking at what they make a year, I kind of felt sorry for them (laughing). Anyway, like you all, I am eager to see what rebuttals they make on behalf of Primerica. I also have CD's of material that was given to me from Primerica, I finally looked at them and WOW, was it cheesy!

Jay, on behalf of myself and my fellow anti-Primericans: welcome to the club. Your analysis is superb, and I can't wait for the responses. I imagine they'll look something like this: "Some people will always be negative thinkers, and will do everything they can to put down a good thing." My response: Some people are incredibly naive, and will let any scoundrel dig his hands in their pockets, if he's nice enough. "I'm not as impressed with numbers as you appear to be. I would rather do what I know is right than do what you THINK is right." My response: A fool and his money will soon part ways. "If you think Primerica is a scam, then you need to pick up Success From Home magazine. In there, you will find that Robert Kiyosaki says we are the best business opportunity out there." My response: Why should we believe a magazine titled after a spam e-mail subject line? And by the way, Kiyosaki said the same thing about Amway just last week.

Jay, on behalf of myself and my fellow anti-Primericans: welcome to the club. Your analysis is superb, and I can't wait for the responses. I imagine they'll look something like this: "Some people will always be negative thinkers, and will do everything they can to put down a good thing." My response: Some people are incredibly naive, and will let any scoundrel dig his hands in their pockets, if he's nice enough. "I'm not as impressed with numbers as you appear to be. I would rather do what I know is right than do what you THINK is right." My response: A fool and his money will soon part ways. "If you think Primerica is a scam, then you need to pick up Success From Home magazine. In there, you will find that Robert Kiyosaki says we are the best business opportunity out there." My response: Why should we believe a magazine titled after a spam e-mail subject line? And by the way, Kiyosaki said the same thing about Amway just last week.

Jay, on behalf of myself and my fellow anti-Primericans: welcome to the club. Your analysis is superb, and I can't wait for the responses. I imagine they'll look something like this: "Some people will always be negative thinkers, and will do everything they can to put down a good thing." My response: Some people are incredibly naive, and will let any scoundrel dig his hands in their pockets, if he's nice enough. "I'm not as impressed with numbers as you appear to be. I would rather do what I know is right than do what you THINK is right." My response: A fool and his money will soon part ways. "If you think Primerica is a scam, then you need to pick up Success From Home magazine. In there, you will find that Robert Kiyosaki says we are the best business opportunity out there." My response: Why should we believe a magazine titled after a spam e-mail subject line? And by the way, Kiyosaki said the same thing about Amway just last week.

Your report is very informative. There's a few loose ends that need to be explained further. Where you're using the term salary, substitute income. Otherwise Crimericans will say you're comparing apples to oranges. Your report focused on the gross income side of the picture which gets gloomier when you factor in business expenses (which practically speaking must include gas and wear and tear on the car) and your time (which must include meetings - unless your family gets involved, expect to see little of them). For all of this my number one complaint about Crimerica is all the fraud and deception condoned by the fat cats. Such a company I wouldn't work for even if they guaranteed me a million dollars.

Your report is very informative. There's a few loose ends that need to be explained further. Where you're using the term salary, substitute income. Otherwise Crimericans will say you're comparing apples to oranges. Your report focused on the gross income side of the picture which gets gloomier when you factor in business expenses (which practically speaking must include gas and wear and tear on the car) and your time (which must include meetings - unless your family gets involved, expect to see little of them). For all of this my number one complaint about Crimerica is all the fraud and deception condoned by the fat cats. Such a company I wouldn't work for even if they guaranteed me a million dollars.

Your report is very informative. There's a few loose ends that need to be explained further. Where you're using the term salary, substitute income. Otherwise Crimericans will say you're comparing apples to oranges. Your report focused on the gross income side of the picture which gets gloomier when you factor in business expenses (which practically speaking must include gas and wear and tear on the car) and your time (which must include meetings - unless your family gets involved, expect to see little of them). For all of this my number one complaint about Crimerica is all the fraud and deception condoned by the fat cats. Such a company I wouldn't work for even if they guaranteed me a million dollars.

Your report is very informative. There's a few loose ends that need to be explained further. Where you're using the term salary, substitute income. Otherwise Crimericans will say you're comparing apples to oranges. Your report focused on the gross income side of the picture which gets gloomier when you factor in business expenses (which practically speaking must include gas and wear and tear on the car) and your time (which must include meetings - unless your family gets involved, expect to see little of them). For all of this my number one complaint about Crimerica is all the fraud and deception condoned by the fat cats. Such a company I wouldn't work for even if they guaranteed me a million dollars.

That's even better than the guys selling that Volcano Insurance called PPL. At least you ran the numbers. This should be real boring waiting for an intelligent response from these hucksters. You gave me a good laugh though Jay. I'm ready to quit working and go sell high interest rates to anyone who wants a loan. After all, that's much "smart"er than paying a low interest loan.

For the reps that may (mostly all won't) try to complete this test, question one is a little tricky. Here is why: On www.primericabusinessopportunity.com [TAB: the opportunity], it asks the question, "Is this "Opportunity" for real?" The answer to that (copied straight from the website) is: Absolutely! In 2004 alone, Primerica paid $573 million in commissions to its part-time and full-time sales force." Let's look at this realistically! Average Salary: Primerica paid only $573 million dollars in commissions. If you take the average, not adjusting for differences in salary, Primerica employees make an average $5,730 per year (found by dividing $573M by the number of reps). Actual Salary*: Dave Derbin gave me a pamphlet of the break down in commissions for Primerica. This was how it was presented: Total number of Primerica employees is 100,000. At least 5,000 employees made over $50-100K in 2004. 4,171 (actual number) of 5,000 made around $50-100K (average it to 75K) 40 of 5,000 made at least $1,000,000 The rest between $150K-1M (we won't even need to use these people in this equation) The Shocking Computation: Take 4,171 x $75,000 = $312,825,000 in commissions paid Take 40 x $1,000,000 = $40,000,000 in commissions paid Total commissions paid = $352,825,000 in commissions paid to only 4,211 of the representatives currently employed with Primerica. That leaves $220,175,000 in commissions to be paid out to 95,789 representatives of Primerica. Divide the $220,175,000 by the number of reps left (95,789) and they made an astonishing $2,298.54 per year. *Please note: If I account for the number of reps that make between $150K-1M that would lower that number significantly, actually making it a negative number. That means either Primerica is lying about how many people are making this kind of money, or they are lying about how much commissions they paid out. I chose both! Pseudo Financial Freedom: Are you sure you're on the road to financial freedom? Seems more like the highway to financial turmoil! Do you honestly believe in Primerica so much, you are willing to get paid $2,300 per yearwhich averages to $44.23 per week, then, you come on this website telling us we're stupid, lazy, and don't want to make any money? Do you realize Central-American illegal immigrants make more than that? You're lucky it's under $7,000 per year or you would have to pay taxes on it! My company currently employs 18,000 individuals and has an average salary of $32,000. That's wages payable, on average, of $576,000,000 per year. That's three million dollars more than Primerica (per year) with 82% less of a workforce. In addition to that, my current company offers group health insurance. Primerica does not offer health insurance, although Dave Derbin tried to coerce me into believing it did. So, let me get this straight, you want me to leave my ok' paying job to make $2,300 per year (slightly more than what I make bi-weekly) and lose my benefitsall in an effort to praise Primerica Financial for making me Financially Independent? WOW, ARE YOU _____________ SERIOUS!